Hopes, expectations and excitement for 2024

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Personally I hope the bubble bursts completely, people realise that F1 is just the emperors new clothes and that the racing and everything else does not really live up to the hype. But, erm, people are dumb. And erm well just people...

So I expect prices to rise, races to increase, Croft to become even more of an overpaid, fat moron and SKY to talk about one incident for 4 races will now be 6 as nothing interesting will happen. I find it staggering that F1 is so popular, I do not understand why, I fail to see the appeal, there are no rivalries the cars are dull as hell they sound awful and have for years, they look awful, the tracks are in the main miserable identikit dumps designed for sponsor reveue not fan immersion, the people running it are determined to make it into 00's NASCAR, the tv people think it's amazing when in fact 10 laps of a WEC race has more interest.


I am simply staggered by the recent success, it cant all be based on a tv show surely? Are people that easily led? To be conned out of hundreds of pounds to watch something from half a mile away, is it that easy?

!

I disagree with everything you have written except some of the Croft remarks.
I am a big fan of many different categories of motor racing -Le Mans is my favourite race in the world -but don’t recognise anything in your first two paragraphs in current F1.
Overall just bizarre.

[Guthrie]

I don't think many people have any doubt that Max is going to win the drivers' Championship and Red Bull is going to win the constructors' Championship but I am expecting a close fight for the second spot between Ferrari, McLaren, and Mercedes in the constructors' Championship. Also, expecting McLaren to win at least a couple of races in 2024.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Le Mans is my favourite race in the world but in the end last year felt hollow.
Yes there was a lot of close,exciting competition but (and I’m not a Toyota fan) the way the ACO neutered Toyota was against everything the race has ever stood for.NASCAR came to Le Mans-and I don’t mean Garage 56.

Maybe my approach is more simplistic than others. I got over BOP a long time ago as I prefer to see cars racing than one team/car winning easily all of the time. Yes, the last minute change at Le Mans wasn't right, but having been to 37 of the last 39 Le Mans it was still as good a race as I've ever seen there. I also don't agree that Toyota were 'neutered' as this suggests they had no chance of winning whereas they finished second, less than a minute and a half behind the winning Ferrari. If that last Ferrari pit stop had taken just a tad longer, the result would have been different and we'd all be saying that Toyota still have a big advantage because of their experience etc. Sure it would be great if there was no BOP and it was down to manufacturers to build and race the best car they can, but we all know how that works out....

[flatlandsman]

I have not watched F1 properly really since the dawn of the hybrid era, it left me cold then and it still does now. I remember the massive drop in my heart when Kravitz was stood at Jerez and didn't need to shout when an F1 car went past. I still can't get past it sorry. the cars are boats, the drivers are petulant little boys modelled on one of the dirtiest drivers ever to race in F1, Schumacher.

I do try, as I used to really love this sport.

But for some reason I find it almost embarrassing, the riches spent, the fake hype, the ridiculous OTT build up.

And then the same bloke wins every race, did for about 7 years and is now with a different logo and flag on the rostrum.

Yes, there flashes of excitement, but the days of it holding my attention are long gone. I am actually now a little embarrassed to admit I used to watch practice, stay in and not go out until qualifying was over.

I think once you realise there is far, far, far better out there it is very easy for forget F1, a bit like missing a home game now and then and realising there are other things to do after 20 years watching your team, or going to the same place on holiday every year. Habit griows old.

I know a lot of people who have done the same recently

I must be in the wrong, crowds are ridiculous, money is even more so, almost inhumanely so when you see what is going in the world.

So as I say, I am quite happy to live without it, but it pains me a little still, as it used to be a very good racing series indeed.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I must be in the wrong, crowds are ridiculous, money is even more so, almost inhumanely so when you see what is going in the world.

It has been decades in the making (including before Liberty). But they have figured out how to be successful at something. What exactly that is... hard to define. It is a bit of racing, a bit of technology, a bit of flash and pizazz, and a few other things tossed in. The problem is... everyone can't agree as to the proper ratios of the above ingredients to bake the perfect cake. See comment below about "racing".

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

So as I say, I am quite happy to live without it, but it pains me a little still, as it used to be a very good racing series indeed.

And this gets to the center of the debate as to "what is racing". One one hand, you have a group that is fine if the winner dominates lap after lap, race after race and season after season because they are just doing the best job. On the other hand, you have a group that wants to see drivers and teams trading the lead back and forth lap to lap, race to race and season to season. Additionally that first group is typically a proponent of a "pure" environment that allows for anyone to win or lose. And the second group (some) might be a bit OK with some level of manipulation (ends justifies the means).

In a perfect world, we would have both. We would have the purity of sport (level playing field rules in which nobody gets a helping hand or is held back, technical freedom, etc.) and that excitement of unpredictability as to who might win (aka "Good Racing ®"). The problem is... they can't figure out how to do both at the same time. And "they" is everyone including FIA, Teams, Engineers, Drivers, and Fans. Especially the fans. Fans are good at stating goals, but poor about solutions.

I will add a new "expectation" to my list. I expect we as fans will still complain about stuff.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I will add a new "expectation" to my list. I expect we as fans will still complain about stuff.

That's not an expectation Richard, that's a given.....

[broadrun96]

I'll say it, PURITY OF SPORT is a garbage statement and ONLY used to defend what the speaker wants to see. Sports are not picked off a tree, there are a set of rules made by humans, there ain't a single thing pure about it

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I'll say it, PURITY OF SPORT is a garbage statement and ONLY used to defend what the speaker wants to see. Sports are not picked off a tree, there are a set of rules made by humans, there ain't a single thing pure about it

100% agree. It is all artificial. The next dirty word (picking a fight here) is "tradition".

All joking aside, tradition, continuity, history, etc. does matter. It's also fuzzy as there is no single perspective that is "right". And because of that change is hard.

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

That's not an expectation Richard, that's a given.....

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I have not watched F1 properly really since the dawn of the hybrid era.

That much is obvious.

[flatlandsman]

If you enjoy it, fair enough, I do not understand why, I cannot see why sorry, I see very little in the odd times I have tried to make me watch more, in fact I invariably fall asleep very quickly. I do not know why, I do not really know why f1 has become such a bore for me now, but I can only tell you it has.

If I knew the answer I could articulate it better

[TrapezeArtist]

IF Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari can get themselves up on a level with Red Bull then that is what I wish for. I would love to see the results shared between all four teams and the championships to be decided by a tiny margin at the last race.

BUT if those three teams can't match Red Bull I'll abandon that hope. Instead I'll go for one of those teams matching or beating Red Bull so we have a two-way fight for the championships.

I also hope that track limits transgressions are brought under control. Preferably by changes to the track layouts but if not, by quick, accurate, hardline penalties to dissuade drivers from exceeding the limits.

I hope that the FIA retakes control of F1 so that the tail stops wagging the dog. Of course this is assuming the FIA behaves in a sensible and honourable manner and we don't go back to a Balestre-type era. Then one of the results of that will be that Andretti gets an entry, which can only be a good thing.

In 2024 I hope that DRS zones can be tweaked a bit to stop TenTenthers moaning about it all the time. In the long-term, car aerodynamics will have to be radically reined-in before DRS can be abolished. Sorry chaps, but that's reality.

I hope that Williams and Alexander Albon get themselves to the front of the mid-field. Anything more would be unrealistic.

My expectations are considerably lower than my hopes. On the teams front, I think it's unlikely that Red Bull will be seriously challenged for the championships (sadly). And even if one or more teams can be a match for Red Bull across the season, their drivers' points tally are likely to be shared whereas MV will take the lion's share of RBR points, partly because he is head-and-shoulders above his teammate and partly because RBR will engineer it that way.

Finally, excitement. I don't see any great upturn happening in 2024, but I'll be there in front of the television every race. It's got to be better than Strictly!

[S griffin]

I don’t expect a repeat of 2023. Red Bull’s cost cap penalty could still harm them in the long run. Mercedes will surely build a better car and Leclerc will remind people he’s still a potential future world champion. But hopefully we’ll have plenty of good racing, with politics kept to the minimum

[AndreasDavour]

Red Bull and Max will win the championships next year, that I think is a given. That's what I expect. I also expect Haas to become even more pointless and Alpine to flounder like they have done.



What I hope is for Mercedes and McLaren to win a few races. I hope Ferrari doesn't implode further and extend the contact for both their drivers, to the same length. They need stability. I would also love for Alonso to get another win, but maybe that's a bit more unsure.



Am I excited for 2024? I'm not sure. The fact the championship is almost certain a given does dull it a bit.

[bathurst77]

So Mr Landsman
You say you havent watched a full f1 race in many years because you dont enjoy it. Thats fine, your choice, there are many sports, hobbies and fascinations for people to spend their time on.

But you come into a group of people who are (mostly) passionate enthusiasts and loudly proclaim this. You havent been watching so you realy arent an expert and dont know what has been happening etc.

DO you go into stamp collecting or coin collecting groups and tell them they are silly for obsessing on tiny scraps of paper and metal disks. Or Australian Rules football groups "I have never watched a game but heres my opinion about the latest happenings in your sport"

Or did you think, just like that famous story, once you proclaimed that the emperor was naked, we would all gasp and realise "The little boy is right!" and change the tv channel?

My point, if you dont like the sport, and havent watched in years, your right, but why are you here? What are you adding to the group?

[flatlandsman]

The point is really that I USED to be a fan and the current iteration of the sport lost me.

I still watch a lot of motorsport, and sadly the world over in most terms F1 is the only motorsport that exists, so in places like this it attracts the most posts, the most attention, so i dip into it.

I am aware of what goes on I just do not watch it live or rigidly as I did, I still know who wins, (lets face it dullards abound) but found watching live a truly dull experience on tv so moved on.

I hate the fact, but I cannot sit by and understand why, I do NOT understand why people like it, I find it staggering that it is so popular, especially now with so much dominance around, yet for some reason it grows and continues to.

I Almost find it a wonder of the world i really do. I just dont get it, that is part of the reason.

I understand why you might be addicted to stamp collecting but to use your rather useless analogy I never have been interested in it so why would i post about it. I spent 40 years if my life liking F1 and watching it, and yet if I try now it fills me with annoyance how it has boomed so much"! as I simply dont get it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Maybe my approach is more simplistic than others. I got over BOP a long time ago as I prefer to see cars racing than one team/car winning easily all of the time.

But the point of Formula 1 or MotoGP or World Rally Championship or World Endurance Championship is to see which constructor can build the best car/bike, no?

BOP should only be needed in classes like GT3 where you are trying to balance wildly different vehicles, not vehicles built to an engineering formula.

WEC have ended up with BOP for "reasons" but it's wrong. Setting a formula of 4L NA V8s and that all chassis and engines must be available to privateers for a fixed price would have done the same trick (i.e., LMP2 for everybody). Would that mean a grid of 20 Toyota-Toyotas and 20 Ferrari-Ferraris? Sure, but it would still be a darn close race!

I similarly think WRC should have gone to standard Super 2000 not "modified" Super 2000. This way works teams and privateers would have all had the same equipment and it would have been glorious.

That cars need to homologated and available for a low fixed price to privateers already solves the problems of thin fields in LM racing or Rally racing, you don't need other rules on top of that.

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Sure it would be great if there was no BOP and it was down to manufacturers to build and race the best car they can, but we all know how that works out....

Bloody fantastic...? You get retrospectives on the Lotus 49, the Ford GT40, the Porsche 917, the Lotus 78, the McLaren MP4/4, the Williams FW14B etc.

Even the Group A homologation cars were not strictly BOP, more like pseudo-BOP meddling in the pre-agreed equivalence formula, yet these cars be they Lancer Evolution, Skyline GT-R, Ford Sierra Cosworth, BMW M3 etc are also much loved. Same for the non-BOP Group B cars.

Is anyone making retrospectives on BOP cars!?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I hate the fact, but I cannot sit by and understand why, I do NOT understand why people like it, I find it staggering that it is so popular, especially now with so much dominance around, yet for some reason it grows and continues to.

There's lot of reasons:

- It has the world's great auto makers. Some like Honda publish intricate technical details of their engines in the Japanese press, like the compact cylinder head developed for 2021.
- It is a competition. 2022 was a fascinting reset, and we have come to appreciate the genius of the Red Bull with it's excellent suspension for stable ride height, outwashing & downwashing sidepod design and superbly designed underfloor designed to minimise sensitivity to ride height & have the centre of pressure rearwards to maximise driver confidence. The contrast to others who were greedy chasing peak downforce and missed the mark (e.g, "hard and low" Mercedes that only makes downforce when scraping the ground, while having a forward centre of pressure that makes it feel unstable to the driver unless balanced by a barn-door rear wing) or the Ferrari that relied on a flexible floor and fell away after that was enforced was utterly fascinating.
- This brings out political intrigue and drama. E.g, Mercedes deliberately running their car dangerously low in Baku 2022 to lobby for a rule change.
- It has a mercurial drivers. The best sealed surface open-wheeler drivers out there, go karting stars turned world champions.
- It has the great races -- the Monaco Grand Prix, the Italian Grand Prix etc etc.
- Competitors like Red Bull or Honda love Grand Prix racing so much, they even host Grand Prixs at the race circuits they own!
- It is not stagnant, but ever changing. This is in contrast to Indycar's 12 year old cars.
- The cars are immense machines were are incredibly fast. Watching a Grand Prix car at full pelt around a classic course like Zandvoort or Suzuka is breath-taking. When it goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong, such are the drivers pushing the cars to the very limit!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I Almost find it a wonder of the world i really do. I just dont get it, that is part of the reason.

I understand why you might be addicted to stamp collecting but to use your rather useless analogy I never have been interested in it so why would i post about it. I spent 40 years if my life liking F1 and watching it, and yet if I try now it fills me with annoyance how it has boomed so much"! as I simply dont get it.

Could you care to point out what is different now than 40 years ago? (It's boomed because of the presentation promoting the "personal" stories, in spite of that you would except ICE to be more on the nose with younger people but go figure, but the product is essentially the same. )

Turbocharged V6 engines -- that's the same. Efficiency formula -- that's the same, albeit regulated by fuel flow instead of by boost pressure in the mid to late 80's.

Artifical political and driver drama? That's the same. The BBC even opened the introduction to the 1989 with a "matter of fact" press release from McLaren F1 Team disparaging Prost and supporting Senna , in response to controversial events at the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix.

The FIA wanted to impose 3.5L V8s even, but Ferrari twisted their arm to insist on allowing up to 12 cylinders. This is the same as a 2014 hybrid formula that was going to be the FIA 1.6L inline-four world engine, but Ferrari twisted the FIA's arm to ensure it would be a V6 formula.

Chassis regulations that are full of loopholes, that one is absolutely the same! The alleged Aston Martin "rubbery" nose of early 2023 is little different at all in deviousness to the 60mm minimum ride height of 1982 being met by coming into the pits and pressuring the hydraulic system to raise the car just before driving above the ride height check laser and the lowering it back down the instant of returning to the race track!

Ill-thought out rule changes? That's the same. The FIA imposed a flat floor in 1983. I think the Venturi ground effects floor of 2022 is great, but some disagree. There will also be doubters, whether it's narrower tyres being mandated (1993), grooved tyre being mandated (1998), wider tyres being allowed and mandated again (2017) etc.

Aside from the tacky street races in Miami or Las Vegas which are an annoyance to most but F1 had already had tacky races in Las Vegas car parks in the 1980's anyway, I'm struggling to see the big differences?!

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

but found watching live a truly dull experience on tv so moved on.

Perhaps you find it less interesting because you only follow the on-track races (which are perhaps only 30-50% likely to deliver an exciting race) and you don't follow the engineering development (the latest sticky-uppy bits, ice skates & sidepod shapes) and you don't follow the politics and engine, personnel & driver market?

A lot of interest, as with football or whatever other sport, is in the other things around it.

The story of Honda Racing Corporation plucking away since 2015 with at times a disastrous engine and Red Bull Racing plucking away at it since 2014 with merely the odd victory, to now have a superbly honed benchmark car is IMO a wonderful story!

Ferrari being Ferrari ("we are checking") and Leclerc being unlucky ("why am I so unlucky") is a heck of a story.

The demise of the Mercedes GP with their hubris of thinking they can run the car "hard and low" and realise phenomenal wind tunnel downforce numbers in the real world (not!), is a heck of a story too. As fans we came to understand the importance of wide sidepods to manage the front tyre wake, now that bargeboards are banned.

Alpine? Well they took each other out at the Australian GP which tells you everything about Alpine. The lack of integration of Viry and Enstone and why the heck the French national F1 team is located in England anyway, the revolving door of Abiteboul, Rossi etc and the incompetent Piastri contract saga is a heck of a story.

You have the resurgence of Williams Grand Prix with Albon the plucky underdog (and all-round nice guy) pulling off great defensive drives to score points, etc.

If you follow it more broadly, people are following all those storylines which adds interest.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you enjoy it, fair enough, I do not understand why, I cannot see why sorry, I see very little in the odd times I have tried to make me watch more, in fact I invariably fall asleep very quickly. I do not know why, I do not really know why f1 has become such a bore for me now, but I can only tell you it has.

If I knew the answer I could articulate it better

Is that because you are only watching the races?

You weren't following the development of the RB18 & RB19 and how they compare to others. How a variety of radically different designs have now converged to an accepted "best" (or at least "easiest"), largely similar to the RB18 and RB19?

You weren't following the development of the Honda RA621H, or finding amusement in how the fabled all-new super-duper 2022 Renault power unit (hideously unreliable in 2022) is now down on power in 2023 -- again.

[S griffin]

Last season wasn't the most exciting I'll grant that, but there were still plenty of stories on track to keep us interested. And I still watch it because it's still the best drivers in the world and that is always worth watching.

[flatlandsman]

OK for you people that watch it still routinely.

tell me a couple of things, for how long?

And mainly what is it that makes you watch it, what do you get out of it, and do you watch much else?

I find truly interesting development interesting but a few million spent on a barge board interests me about as much as watching grass grow, I was lucky to be around when true innovation was there, now the cars look very similar, they are all pushing around the same areas and largely development is seemingly limited.

I will give you an example.

I will at times try and watch qualifying, I try, I sit there and watch 4 grown men holding a tyre blanket over a tyre, and think why, what is the point as in five seconds the temp is going to be lost as it rolls down a pitlane covered in dirt, footsteps, rubbish and then will be off track when it enters the racetrack picking up dirt. I used to find leaf blowers tragic, then this year WEC removed tyre warmers altogether and it made it fabulously difficult.

I think I feel it has grown out of itself in a way, lots of very clever people gainfully employed (I live near Brackley that has been taken over by Mercedes, now ruining local business by opening new roads and trampling all over local businesses simply to employ another 600 people at tens of millions a year) All to get two overpaid petulant little men to go quicker in cars that bear zero relevance to anything anyone can ever drive.

I find this a little how can I put it, silly!

And sorry but the best drivers in the world is a very tricky argument, I WRC top men, WEC dealing with 3 classes night and day, rain or shine, INdycar being able to be quick at a road course and at Indy? Do you need more talent to do that? I think so.

They are probably the quickest drivers, but the best is open for debate surely?

[Greem]

I've been watching F1 for well over 40 years. I still have a passion for it, albeit that passion waxes and wanes over time.

I've posited before that people tend to lose that passion when they get far enough away from what they term their own "golden age", which is most often the few years after first watching. It's especially profound when a "new crowd" turn up who bring new enthusiasm but know nothing about your own golden age.

I'm lucky; I've spent over 10 years up close and in some cases very very personal with F1 cars at the British GP. Eras be damned, they're all incredible machines and the current crop are utterly breathtaking in their speed and cornering ability. The only things that come close are the P1 Hybrids when they're let loose around the Circuit de la Sarthe - and, luckily, I've been up close enough to them to have my hat literally blown off.

Sadly for your argument though about it being *silly* - please educate us as to how us mortals might have a crack in a WRC, WEC or Indycar. They're not exactly representative of a mild hybrid Toyota that we could all pop down to the dealer and test drive, are they?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I sit there and watch 4 grown men holding a tyre blanket over a tyre, and think why, what is the point

Isn't the point because when you remove them, performance has been lost making the car more difficult to drive?

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

this year WEC removed tyre warmers altogether and it made it fabulously difficult.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think I feel it has grown out of itself in a way, lots of very clever people gainfully employed (I live near Brackley that has been taken over by Mercedes, now ruining local business by opening new roads and trampling all over local businesses simply to employ another 600 people at tens of millions a year)

Providing gainful employment, and expanding the number of people employed to the point that more infrastructure is needed is a bad thing?

Or is this more of a nimby view to Mercedes' expansion?

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

All to get two overpaid petulant little men to go quicker in cars that bear zero relevance to anything anyone can ever drive.

Why such a condescending description of the drivers?

I would have though that someone who lives in Brackley and posts in a Motorsport forum would already understand that F1 racing has never been about the cars that most people drive on the road?

[flatlandsman]

I guess relevance is a poor idea with any motorspot really unless it is linked to road tech, I think LM and WEC has more relevance than most for cars that are not available to buy to be honest. Fuel, Oil, engine development, engineering, getting stuff to last flat out for hours on end is considerably harder to engineer I believe.

The aero involved in F1 and the vast sums spent on it has no relevance whatsoever to anything you will ever see on road cars.

I dont live in Brackley, I live near there, and I simply find it fascinating that so many people, so much space is taken up to get two little men around a race track to sell cars.

Does anyone else not think it's a bit crass, a bit silly, a bit emperors new clothes at time?

I mean I can watch most things, but the money spent is astronomic, yes it employs people and that is good, but a lot of this brain power could be used in far more productive ways aswell.

It is not an era thing either, I spent nigh on 35 years enjoying the sport and only the last 10 or so fallen away from it, maybe dominance, maybe hybrids, maybe tyre saving probably a combo of all.

But I do however find it fascinating how popular it is, how much people will spend watching and attending and how people manage to let a few corners of excitement push them to watch for years on end.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

OK for you people that watch it still routinely.

tell me a couple of things, for how long?

And mainly what is it that makes you watch it, what do you get out of it, and do you watch much else?

I find truly interesting development interesting but a few million spent on a barge board interests me about as much as watching grass grow, I was lucky to be around when true innovation was there, now the cars look very similar, they are all pushing around the same areas and largely development is seemingly limited.

I will give you an example.

I will at times try and watch qualifying, I try, I sit there and watch 4 grown men holding a tyre blanket over a tyre, and think why, what is the point as in five seconds the temp is going to be lost as it rolls down a pitlane covered in dirt, footsteps, rubbish and then will be off track when it enters the racetrack picking up dirt. I used to find leaf blowers tragic, then this year WEC removed tyre warmers altogether and it made it fabulously difficult.

I think I feel it has grown out of itself in a way, lots of very clever people gainfully employed (I live near Brackley that has been taken over by Mercedes, now ruining local business by opening new roads and trampling all over local businesses simply to employ another 600 people at tens of millions a year) All to get two overpaid petulant little men to go quicker in cars that bear zero relevance to anything anyone can ever drive.

I find this a little how can I put it, silly!

And sorry but the best drivers in the world is a very tricky argument, I WRC top men, WEC dealing with 3 classes night and day, rain or shine, INdycar being able to be quick at a road course and at Indy? Do you need more talent to do that? I think so.

They are probably the quickest drivers, but the best is open for debate surely?

I have watched every race live since the Malaysian GP in 2002.

My reason for loving F1? It's my happy sport.

Example. You support a football team. They win, they lose, or they draw.
They win, great, you're happy. Draw, meh. Lose, not happy.

F1 - I have no strong allegiance to any one team or driver. I have my favourites and if I was pressed to say number ones, it would be Fernando and Ferrari.

But that's the thing. Okay, Max wins by 47 seconds.
But look! Alonso grabbed P2. What a drive! and Yuki got to P10 from the back of the grid, good on him.

That's why for me, F1 will always be a positive sport.