Tom Coronel

[redshoes]

I know we've partly discussed this before but I can't find the relevent thread.

According to today's Autosport Tom Coronel and GR Asia have been told that they will not be allowed to run as independentd if they race in the WTCC next year. As we've previously discussed, Coronel does have a lot of backing from SEAT Holland and both team and driver are far more experienced than your average independent. The right decision in my view.

Doesn't say what happens in Coronel races with a different (non-works) team next year.

[Monkey Head]

How about if GR Asia not running with Tom Coronel?

[Duffacus]

To be fair I don't think the indie teams should be running brand new cars, i.e. GR Asia running this years SEAT. That totally goes against what indie teams are about.

I don't see the problem for next year as the cars will be a year old in that respect, but it could be the only decision based on the money coming through from SEAT Holland.

[Robbe]

I think it's a fair decision as Tom is on one level with Colciago (and maybe with Giovanardi, too), and they aren't allowed either.
I hope Tom gets a factory SEAT next year, he deserves it.

But I don't know about GR Asia. If it means GR Asia aren't allowed to compete in Independent's Trophy (or just not with Coronel?), they could say aswell that JAS shouldn't be in the Independent's Trophy. And this will lead to very small and disappointing independent grids.

But maybe I just got it all wrong, and only Tom isn't allowed to drive with GR next year...

[E46]

Originally Posted by Robbe

But I don't know about GR Asia. If it means GR Asia aren't allowed to compete in Independent's Trophy (or just not with Coronel?)

I think it means just Coronel, not GR Asia. JAS is a more experienced team than GR Asia and they run in Independent´s trophy with Corthals or De Micheli (in 2005).

[Lightning Bug]

Originally Posted by Duffacus

To be fair I don't think the indie teams should be running brand new cars, i.e. GR Asia running this years SEAT. That totally goes against what indie teams are about.

That's not strictly true. Coronel races Leon chassis 001, which Gene debuted in 2005. It's actually got a longer competition history than Rangoni's BMW 320si - that model didn't even make its debut until 2006, so you'd have to rule him out on those criteria too.

Surely there's nothing to stop Tom racing for GR Asia next year in the main championship? They'd probably enjoy going for outright wins and podiums rather than staying out of trouble for independent points!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I know we've partly discussed this before but I can't find the relevent thread.

According to today's Autosport Tom Coronel and GR Asia have been told that they will not be allowed to run as independentd if they race in the WTCC next year. As we've previously discussed, Coronel does have a lot of backing from SEAT Holland and both team and driver are far more experienced than your average independent. The right decision in my view.

Doesn't say what happens in Coronel races with a different (non-works) team next year.

I am not surprised if he's not allowed to race as independent. Don't forget he's a former Japanese F3 Champion, Masters of F3 winner, Formula Nippon Champion and ETCC Independent Champion. If Colciago is not allowed I see no reason why Coronel would be.

The fact his car was new is in my opinion not a reason. One of the best aspects of Super2000 is the fact you can buy the same (or almost the same) car as factory drivers.

So banning Coronel is in my opinion correct. Not because of his car or money from SEAT Holland but pure on his racing talent.

[davyboy]

There needs to be a very clear, rule-based, distinction between a works entry and an independent entry. Providing Tom [or anyone else] falls the works side of the fence, they should be inelligible for the other. Problems will arise if decision's subjective based on Tom's experience, his funders or his team and they are not part of the rule-based criteria.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Lightning Bug

That's not strictly true. Coronel races Leon chassis 001, which Gene debuted in 2005.

Is that definate? Prior to it's debut at Brands Hatch there were refernces to the car still being assembled a few before, which I took to mean it was a new build.

Originally Posted by Monkey Head

How about if GR Asia not running with Tom Coronel?

It's not very clear but my understanding of the article is that the restriction only applies to the combination of Coronel and GR Asia. Cornel could still be an independent in another team and GR Asia could run another driver as an independent.

Originally Posted by davyboy

There needs to be a very clear, rule-based, distinction between a works entry and an independent entry.

WTCC has always had the provision to invoke this rule at the organisers discression, as they did with Colciago. Problem is that there is no hard and fast scale where a team/driver crosses the line between independent and non-independent entry.

In the ST days the BTCC's rule of thumb was that an independent was someone who got no more help from a manufactorer than would be available to any other driver. Even that was open to interpretation.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by redshoes

WTCC has always had the provision to invoke this rule at the organisers discression, as they did with Colciago. Problem is that there is no hard and fast scale where a team/driver crosses the line between independent and non-independent entry.

In the ST days the BTCC's rule of thumb was that an independent was someone who got no more help from a manufactorer than would be available to any other driver. Even that was open to interpretation.

That's exactly the problem, its a subjective caveat rather than a prescribed rule and that's what got me a little upset about it today when I read it in Autosport. There's no question that Coronel's entry is not in the spirit of what an independent should be, however he was allowed to run as an independent all year and under the same 'rules' he can't next year. Its far too subjective.

[Go_For_Pole]

Coronel CV is top, no question however Rangoni's is also excellent. The only difference between those two is that Coronel went to Japan, while Rangoni did not bother. Talent-wise they are equal and their battle (once Luca got up to speed) was a mouthwatering prospect for me, sadly we are having no more of this.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Yes, the Coronel-Rangoni battle could have been great. However, about independents: how about doing it as we do in Sweden, where the car has to be X year(s) old to compete in the independent championship?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Yes, the Coronel-Rangoni battle could have been great. However, about independents: how about doing it as we do in Sweden, where the car has to be X year(s) old to compete in the independent championship?

That's one of the more logical approaches alright. I think the most important thing is to unambiguously define what constitutes an independent entry, so everyone's clear about it, and not leave it to someone's discretion... which is the way it is now.

[donkeyman]

Is it realistic to expect genuine independents in WTCC? They all receive, and will continue to receive, factory backing to some degree, although they pay for the privilege. As long as there hasn't been a model change, surely the age of the car doesn't matter, (or am I being naive), and it would be impractical to enforce an "original spec" rule, which would prevent teams from development. A two or three year old car could quickly be brought up to near-current spec.

I believe that Coronel's SEAT in 2006 wasn't quite up to works spec. although it wasn't far off. Surprisingly, Ceresoli's was, I think, a slightly higher spec car.

In view of SEAT's cutback from 6 to 4 it seems unlikely that Coronel will get a full works drive. One solution is that for 2007 GR Asia could run a split team of 3 cars. Coronel in a full-works car - presumably funded by SEAT Holland, and two independents using 2006 cars- (?O'brien + an-other). This may suit Coronel as, judging from his glowing comments he has a very high opinion of GR Asia, and clearly has an excellent working relationship with the team.

[Maggo]

Some years ago, Schnitzer raced as independent in the German STW Championchip. In that year BMW did no works employment.
But surely Schnitzer had the knowhow of a worksteam.

Where to put the line?

I think its a good thing, that everyone can buy a works kit (i.e. a BMW 320si), but that doesn't make you as fast as a works team.

btw, Coronels Seat looks a bit different than the works Seat.
So I believe that its a 2005 model.

[courageous]

Defining these things is the wrong way to go, there are always people who fit the wording but not the spirit.

As a comparison, look at the Indycar rookie rules that are in black and white - a driver like Mansell was able to be a rookie.

Or in lower GT championships where they penalise cars running professional drivers - Schumacher, Lauda and many many more have had to pay for drives (which means they were not professional drivers).

[davyboy]

There will always be exceptions which fit the rules but not the spirit, that's life. However clear rules, as opposed to subjective judgement, bring consistency and are the best way of legislating sport.

[redshoes]

Sorry Davy, but in this instance I have to disagree. Whatever criteria you use there will always be exceptions. The regs have to be flexable enough to cope.

I can understand the problem if the ruling had been brought in part-way through the season and Coronel was suddenly dropped from the Independents' points table, but that's never been the case. Going into the 2007 Coronel knows exactly where he stands, just as Colciago did when the rule was applied to him.

Some GT series have similar rules when it comes to setting minimum pit-stop times based on the drivers' pro-am status. In some cases an amateur will be placed in the 'pro' category because of his previous experience. The system works well, drivers are aware of their category before the season starts and have the opportunity to appeal if they feel they have been unfairly judged.

In ETCC/WTCC terms the rule has only been applied on very selected occations. Just as with GTs I assume that Coronel, or any other effected driver, will have the opportunity to appeal if they think the ruling is unfair.