What's happening to motorsport?

[MartinSmith]

And I agree and have said the same as Tim...Change it...if you want Change...Change it.

I even offerd to set up the meeting once....no one replied!! ha ha

Get ya committee together ....start the ball rolling


remember...someone once told us we would never get a six hour race offf the ground.....I say no more x

[Al Weyman]

@ Claire

Competitors moan about small grids then when you offer them cheap racing.....they dont turn up

Maybe people dont want to do your enduros, me for one.

You talk about consolidating grids, then when we do, you moan about it, discredit it as "run what you brung", you say that there is over crowding yet you still allow your clubs to launch new series that are aimed at an already over crowded market place or, if it is too general say "I dont want to race with them" yet have no grounds not to race with them. see, you have an idea of what you would like at a race meeting, but in truth, no one will talk to one another and MAKE THE MEETING...no one does.
Those that do exclude, those that do cater for certain people and a certain type of car exclude the only way they know how...costs and red tape and will charge you for it....they have to, because, instead of getting full grids, they are only getting half grids...but as I have said...they still are paying the same

When the hell have I ever said any of that?

....so ....what do you all suggest the circuit does?

As has been said many times, break the circle, lower the fees and fill the bloody grids!

Dont moan at Organising clubs for "adding a class" because they would not have to add a class or change goal posts if you as competitors attended the event, if the event is not your thing then that’s fine also, but don’t tell me that I shouldn’t have this one in or that one in. ....as I always say....give me 48 cars of what YOU want to race....and I will exclude the rest or run your own series which will cost you a fair bit ....which you could do and you can put what you want on the grid....but in the meantime....dont moan at me if I take someone’s entry because they want to race,......and you dont!

Who has ever moaned about any of that, not me???

All of what I have now said makes NO difference whatsoever because even if you think “its wrong” none of you do anything about it, no one objects to decisions made by the MSA, you would not get yourselves together to challenge "the status que" yet the MSA only govern because we allow them to?...we are, as we have always been, a pie and pint nation and its like the Peter Kay sketch that was on the other night…the family at a restaurant .”The service here is terrible….Im never coming again….I mean it, I mean it”…then the waiter comes up “Is everything OK?” “Yes its lovely fine thank you ….its very nice”…That’s what we do.

Now you are talking about a group action not an individual action which is why I suggested this should be discussed!!!


@ Lancbreaker.

Don't disagree with much of what you say, Claire, although some of your comments are obviously and understandably based on your specific viewpoint. You say that "Competitors moan about small grids then when you offer them cheap racing.....they dont turn up" - and I appreciate that you do offer cheap events on a "cost per track minute" basis...but in absolute terms they aren't cheap - particularly if you don't live on the event's doorstep. Many wage slaves (and indeed the self-employed) tend to have to budget for their racing on an event by event basis...and an event that maybe costs £250 to enter - even if only for 20 minutes, is just plain more affordable that an event for £800 for 2 hours - and maybe the ability to "scratch the itch" and get on track every month or so in the season is better than only doing a couple of events a year, (if that, he says, having sat out two seasons for financial reasons...)

Thanks Richard, some common sense. With respect Claire many of us DO NOT WANT TO DO AN ENDURO END OF!!!!!!!!! Look many of us are running old and self prepared cars on a budget, so we pitch up and pay you a grand to do an enduro and like poor Terry Gilbert dont even make the race are you gonna give us a refund?? Of course not and why should you. What I am saying is its all about financial risk entering these longer races which is why I am not prepared to risk hard earned cash going to Spa.

@ Tim, if you don't like my posts just stop reading them OK its not an obligation you know.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

@ Claire
Maybe people dont want to do your enduros, me for one.


When the hell have I ever said any of that?


As has been said many times, break the circle, lower the fees and fill the bloody grids!


Who has ever moaned about any of that, not me???



Now you are talking about a group action not an individual action which is why I suggested this should be discussed!!!


@ Lancbreaker.



Thanks Richard, some common sense. With respect Claire many of us DO NOT WANT TO DO AN ENDURO END OF!!!!!!!!! Look many of us are running old and self prepared cars on a budget, so we pitch up and pay you a grand to do an enduro and like poor Terry Gilbert dont even make the race are you gonna give us a refund?? Of course not and why should you. What I am saying is its all about financial risk entering these longer races which is why I am not prepared to risk hard earned cash going to Spa.

@ Tim, if you don't like my posts just stop reading them OK its not an obligation you know.

Al, read my post, right at tge begining! ... Or even better, exclude the Endurance part (which I DID SAY I WAS NOT REFERRING TO!!!)

Xxx love ya still heaps Al xx

[Al Weyman]

Only yetsreday or the day before an announcement on here signified the start of a new series....which in truth ...is being covered by at least another two clubs!!!! why do another the same?

No it didnt? It was basically putting feelers out if anyone interested in a very basic limited modification budget series, lets get that straight. No interest then fine, it dont happen.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

No it didnt? It was basically putting feelers out if anyone interested in a very basic limited modification budget series, lets get that straight. No interest then fine, it dont happen.

Of what cars Al?... What's the specifics that are different?

[Al Weyman]

Look for starters this was not my idea, I am not on any committee and knew nothing about it till a few days ago when I read about it here and on the club Facebook page but as I understand it, its aimed at the real budget end of the market more or less standard cars with limited suspension upgrades, standard engines or at standard least cams and blueprinted, and uprated brake pads and discs and thats it. They have already had enquires from guys who are sick of the spending runaway in some of the other 'similar' series thats been mentioned so who knows maybe there is a call for something like this, its sufficientaly different and you should be able to prepare a car for a grand or so if you were on a real budget, a sort of PBMBMW series but allowing a full range of cars that are worth Jack all on the road. Maybe with the current bdget constrains there is a need for something like this.

[midgetman]

On October 8th at Castle Combe there's an open saloon car race for £99 entry, plus £25 day membership of Castle Combe Racing Club, is anyone on here doing it? Can't knock that for value, if cheap racing is your game, then this should be the answer to your prayers. Vote with your wheels if you want cheaper race entries.

Same day, I'm doing a duathlon, running and cycling, that's £40 entry fee so the Combe race isn't that much more in the grand scheme of things. It will be interesting to see which attracts more interest - the cheap race meeting or the expensive run.

My feeling is that the cost of entries isn't the sole factor keeping grids low. Karting entry fees at Clay are £45 and the grids have been noticeably thinner these days.

Life is changing, there are competing things to do with your time other than spend weeks preparing a car, traipsing across the country every other weekend for the privilege of being bossed around for a day, in return for which you get 15 minutes of action! My personal perfect calendar would comprise about four or five top quality (possibly expensive) weekends with as much track time as possible on a challenging circuit. If I have spent a grand of my hard earned cash on a weekend entertainment, I expect to be treated a bit better than at some events I've been to over the past few years! IMHO this is the attitude that is reducing the number of competitors more than the entry fee itself.

[Lancsbreaker]

Certainly good value, Max, if you are somewhere near that part of the world...who's running / promoting it?...'cos they should be shouting it from the rooftops to get a full entry and prove the value point

[midgetman]

Castle Combe Racing Club of course, well known for championing the competitor. Further west still, the Welsh Sports and Saloon Championship at Pembrey has a money back scheme which has enticed more than a few entries this year. I think a friend of mine got basically 50% back but I may be talking out my rear here. Certainly worth supporting such series that are helping competitors if cost is your driving factor.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Certainly good value, Max, if you are somewhere near that part of the world...who's running / promoting it?...'cos they should be shouting it from the rooftops to get a full entry and prove the value point

I agree, how are we meant to find these things out, could this be one of the clubs (in general not just CCRC) problems. Btw I bet its not open to bigger engines cars. I am giving the next four meetings I could do a miss (sadly voting with my feet as has been suggested above) and planning to do races at the Combe Historic Festival so yet again another tiny loss for the clubs I would have raced with

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I agree, how are we meant to find these things out, could this be one of the clubs (in general not just CCRC) problems. Btw I bet its not open to bigger engines cars. I am giving the next four meetings I could do a miss (sadly voting with my feet as has been suggested above) and planning to do races at the Combe Historic Festival so yet again another tiny loss for the clubs I would have raced with

Good for you Al. You could stay on for the Sunday, do the special race, then come and wave a flag for me at Bowood, just up the road!

Don't be "sad" for the clubs you "would" have raced with. Sometimes we need to be selfish, do what pleases US and not what helps the club out. Sounds so hard doesn't it? But if we don't we won't get organisers asking "Why are our entries down?" and without that nothing will change except the volume of the grumbling.

I only heard about the race through a Facebook post, it would be wise to check with the management....

[Al Weyman]

It will be with Bernie's V8's so probably two races at least anyhow.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Look for starters this was not my idea, I am not on any committee and knew nothing about it till a few days ago when I read about it here and on the club Facebook page but as I understand it, its aimed at the real budget end of the market more or less standard cars with limited suspension upgrades, standard engines or at standard least cams and blueprinted, and uprated brake pads and discs and thats it. They have already had enquires from guys who are sick of the spending runaway in some of the other 'similar' series thats been mentioned so who knows maybe there is a call for something like this, its sufficientaly different and you should be able to prepare a car for a grand or so if you were on a real budget, a sort of PBMBMW series but allowing a full range of cars that are worth Jack all on the road. Maybe with the current bdget constrains there is a need for something like this.

Al I already race in a BARC SE Tin Top series that caters for the budget end of club racing - it even has a specific production class for limited modifications. So if another club wants to setup somthing similar how is that going to help the situation?

All thats going to happen is another set of diluted grids and we're back again to moaning of not enough people to race against on track, and higher entry fees to compensate for the lack of a full grid. And thus we are back again to the start of the discussion! and repeat...

[Al Weyman]

Maybe some members like to belong to and want to race with the CTCRC have you concidered that. I think we should all wait till there are more details of the proposals and I stress proposals as I am sure if there is no interest it will be shelved anyhow but at least see whats on offer. I dunno maybe the future is alternative fuel car racing who knows, just some out of the box thinking needs to happen and quick.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Maybe some members like to belong to and want to race with the CTCRC have you concidered that. I think we should all wait till there are more details of the proposals and I stress proposals as I am sure if there is no interest it will be shelved anyhow but at least see whats on offer. I dunno maybe the future is alternative fuel car racing who knows, just some out of the box thinking needs to happen and quick.

I think you need to cool off and maybe apologise to me if Im honest.
x You say that you want a debate about Motorsport and "its long overdue" when you get one, you slag me off for it?????????????? if you dont like a debate dont ask for one, if you dont want to hear other peoples opinions Al, you cannot expect them to respect yours.

I honestly think this thread should be renamed....its unfair to The BRSCC (I have no commitment to them but think its wrong that their name is in the title, but this "discussion" is not about them anymore) and should be renamed as suggested by Chezza

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I honestly think this thread should be renamed....its unfair to The BRSCC (I have no commitment to them but think its wrong that their name is in the title, but this "discussion" is not about them anymore) and should be renamed as suggested by Chezza

Done, but I do feel the BRSCC should come in for some stick as well - they have not been covering themselves in glory recently.

This thread should probably be in Racers' forum, but I'll leave it here for the moment.

[MMC Andy]

Claire, on a previous page Al was complimenting you and your efforts with the 360 club so not fair to totally berate on this forum . . . . I think the debate has been interesting but as there's only been a couple of significant contributors - who have views at the opposite ends of the spectrum, it may appear like conflict.

For what it's worth my view is this. As many on here know, I'm in the Motorsport Insurance game, insuring from F1 down to grassroots and I visit race circuits every week of the year, and so know abit about the UK racing scene. At grassroots level, I love the amount of choice I have to race my CRX in the UK - I mainly choose the CSCC, but have raced with the 360 Club and the Alfa's (!) this year, added to that I could do Trackday Trophy, Project 8, SE Tin Tops, Nippon etc etc. Choice & variety is good at my (grassroots) level of the sport. Granted there are alot of series, but all those mentioned have healthy grids, and so demand must be there.

I do think that organising clubs should task their Series with maintaining minimum grid numbers - incentivising them and rewarding them if they exceed (as the Welsh club over at Pembury are now doing), but applying penalties or ending series if they don't. There's nothing wrong with new series being set up - if the demand is there - but how many series actually wind up each year - not enough.

Organising clubs must take more responsiblity - they (largely) appear to be out of touch with (financial & competitor) reality at the moment

My (bigger) issue is with the next level above grassroots - where the budgets are £25k - £80k per season to run. It makes no sense that series like Intersteps, Production Trophy, Saker Challenge, Smart Cars, Ferrari Open, Aston Martin GT4 Challenge can continue to attract the numbers they do and appeal to competitors, sponsors and spectators. I read this week that GT Cup have canned their next race meeting due to low numbers. Well done them.

My belief is that its not neccessarily the number of race series available which is the issue - room for lots of guys like me doing it for fun on £5k a year - its the lack of a sensible motorsport ladder/progression in the Country. Going from £5k a year to £25k a year causes the issues - there will always be grassroot drivers and always be the super rich drivers (BGT / Britcar) but the middle band are the ones feeling the financial pinch at the moment & this is where motorsport options need to be culled IMHO.

[Al Weyman]

Why should I appologise Claire, I have made a statement of fact I am sorry if you cannot agree with that. All these things water down the pot its as easy as that sorry if you disagree. BTW I am and was quite calm thank you. And Claire can you tell me precisely where I have slagged you off as this breaks the rules of the forum and I dont think I have done that.

[Dan Friel]

I can't see how this can be "solved" at club / competitor level.

1. The UK has the most diverse and the best club motorsport in the world. However, I think it's now too thinly spread with too many clubs and massive overlap in series type / races. Quality has now been diluted to the extent that spectators (if there were any in the first place) and many marshals are put off. A dangerous spiral where enjoyment levels are dipping. Given the current economic climate, the product has to be focused and real value.

2. If clubs aren't getting good grids, then it's either not being marketed properly or simply isn't wanted by the competitors. Is it more complicated than that? I find it bizarre that some organisers don't / can't consider competitors as customers. Something that officials also need to remember, me included... Some clubs / organisers are bound to lose significant revenue / go under, and I don't find that surprising in the current climate. Just surprised that this hasn't happened already...

Perhaps they still don't consider it within their remit, or perhaps they don't consider it a problem, but change can only be driven from the governing body..

From a personal perspective it would be great to race, but can't be justified (and I don't consider myself poor).. But I'm off hillclimbing a road car this weekend, to many that's exceptionally poor "£ per mile" - although a great day out, very relaxed and what I can afford.

[Al Weyman]

I can't see how this can be "solved" at club / competitor level.

I can agree there so its no good people telling me to go off and do something about it unilaterally. I have in fact tried in the past by starting my own successful championship but that suffered in the Miss Foulston era along with every other. I think it needs to be discussed at the highest level between MSA, Track owners and operators and the major clubs. As for your Hillclimbing I am also with you on that, people keep bringing up the cost per track minute thing and saying this race is wonderful value compared to that race but as has been said by Richard Lancebreaker that doesnt cut ice with me either. I want to be part of the thing and if its just one race on the day if I have had fun and its reasonably priced then I'm happy and will come again, simple as that. For what its worth from a club racing and excitment for spectator point of view I think Rod Birley has it right, two short sharp races with rolling starts for the price of one 20 minute race. No green flags just pure racing.

[VIVA GT]

I've been a motor-racing fan for most of my life. A spectator from the late 60's whenever I could persuade my dad or sisters boyfriend to take me, spectating more often from the mid-70's onwards.
I've competed (Mini Se7en & Modified Saloons in 82 & 83), and then worked for a BTCC team from 1987.
I've also been to a number of overseas events too.
So, I've seen things from a number of different perspectives.
Over the years there have been a number of changes.
When I first started spectating, the circuits earned enough revenue from having race meetings most weekends, plus a little bit more income from small industrial units (OK, mostly shacks and old stables in those days!). Nowadays it's just not financially viable to have a huge piece of land like that which isn't used more often, hence the need for track days and corporate events to be rune when there's no racing. (Adding to this of course there are the increasing 'environmental pressures' from NIMBY's who have bought or built property's next to the circuit, then complained about the noise!)
The cost of competing has increased for a number of reasons. Safety legislation has meant that the cars have to have more costly equipment installed, plus I am sure that the organising clubs are facing increasing insurance costs due to the 'no win no pay' legal claim culture that we now have.
On top of all of this we are currently in a recession, meaning that potential spectators have less spare cash (or are less willing to risk spending their spare cash) to go and watch races.
Potential competitors are in the same boat financially too, meaning that their appearances are being restricted for the same reasons.
Therefore one of the problems that then organising clubs face is in ensuring their own revenue, so if they see what appears to be a successful race championship, if they can create something similar, maybe this will lead to the competitors in that championship will defect to theirs, thereby increasing the income to that club.
Finally I'm going to be a bit controversial here and say that the competitors have to decide if they'd rather race for the fun & excitement of racing (so they're not bothered about how many spectators there are), of if they want to show off in front of a load of people (including getting exposure for their sponsors), meaning that higher profile meetings are important to tem.
The reason that I say this is that for the first time in years I went to watch a couple of mates racing in the BMW Compact Cup a month or so ago. This was a 750 MC meeting with well subscribed grids, a great atmosphere in the paddock, but not many spectators. (Most appeared to be like me, there to watch their mates having a good time).

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I've been a motor-racing fan for most of my life. A spectator from the late 60's whenever I could persuade my dad or sisters boyfriend to take me, spectating more often from the mid-70's onwards.
I've competed (Mini Se7en & Modified Saloons in 82 & 83), and then worked for a BTCC team from 1987.
I've also been to a number of overseas events too.
So, I've seen things from a number of different perspectives.
Over the years there have been a number of changes.
When I first started spectating, the circuits earned enough revenue from having race meetings most weekends, plus a little bit more income from small industrial units (OK, mostly shacks and old stables in those days!). Nowadays it's just not financially viable to have a huge piece of land like that which isn't used more often, hence the need for track days and corporate events to be rune when there's no racing. (Adding to this of course there are the increasing 'environmental pressures' from NIMBY's who have bought or built property's next to the circuit, then complained about the noise!)
The cost of competing has increased for a number of reasons. Safety legislation has meant that the cars have to have more costly equipment installed, plus I am sure that the organising clubs are facing increasing insurance costs due to the 'no win no pay' legal claim culture that we now have.
On top of all of this we are currently in a recession, meaning that potential spectators have less spare cash (or are less willing to risk spending their spare cash) to go and watch races.
Potential competitors are in the same boat financially too, meaning that their appearances are being restricted for the same reasons.
Therefore one of the problems that then organising clubs face is in ensuring their own revenue, so if they see what appears to be a successful race championship, if they can create something similar, maybe this will lead to the competitors in that championship will defect to theirs, thereby increasing the income to that club.
Finally I'm going to be a bit controversial here and say that the competitors have to decide if they'd rather race for the fun & excitement of racing (so they're not bothered about how many spectators there are), of if they want to show off in front of a load of people (including getting exposure for their sponsors), meaning that higher profile meetings are important to tem.
The reason that I say this is that for the first time in years I went to watch a couple of mates racing in the BMW Compact Cup a month or so ago. This was a 750 MC meeting with well subscribed grids, a great atmosphere in the paddock, but not many spectators. (Most appeared to be like me, there to watch their mates having a good time).

Well said and all true

[Minicross424]

[QUOTE=Dan Friel;3132185]I can't see how this can be "solved" at club / competitor level.

1. The UK has the most diverse and the best club motorsport in the world. However, I think it's now too thinly spread with too many clubs and massive overlap in series type / races. Quality has now been diluted to the extent that spectators (if there were any in the first place) and many marshals are put off. A dangerous spiral where enjoyment levels are dipping. Given the current economic climate, the product has to be focused and real value.

Spot on Dan.
Too many championships and series, too many classes and regulations for cars to be built to.

If I mention Hotrod or Stockcar racing on here most of you will turn your nose up and think its nothing more that some rough half brother that you want nothing to do with but be could learn ALOT from them.

There are tracks all over the country but only about five or six main formulas that all run to the same rules that means you can travel about or stay put and enjoy a good race with other in machines that are equal.
The formulas cater for all budgets too:
National Hot Rods or F1 Stockcars - Top of the sport, decent car will set you back about 30K
2 litre Hot Rods or F2 Stockcars - Next level down and more affordable, a good hotrod would still cost 8-10k new.
Stockrods or 1300cc Stockcars, For the driver on a budget. Cars cost about 2.5K for a decent one.
Rookie rods. Real entry level stuff, basic safety equipment and road going tyres.

Ok its not everyones cup of tea but at least everyone knows where they are and they fill the staduims with paying public.

T.V coverage? Some of it yep, premier sports and a few years ago Gears and Tears done a great job for them.

[GORDON STREETER]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...11#post3132011
I put this on another thread 26
I agree with VIVA GT also when I started racing there was not a lot else open on sundays so for me it was racing or church !

[mig]

My main costs when racing are the price of fuel, this is not going to get any cheaper, the government earn too much out of it which is why I think drivers are trying to keep to their local circuits.

Entry fees are getting higher but as has been said the organising clubs have to try and cover their costs. The only way to try and keep these low is if all of the races on the day have full grids, This is down to the drivers to enter and on time. I think that to help this situation clubs should put their differences aside and try to align their regs and have invitation classes or handicaps (put a car up a class) for cars that might not conform to a certain class. This would allow drivers to save on travelling costs and race at their local tracks in various visiting races. I also think that their are too many championships it seems that I always read about new championships starting up the msa should stop this unless it can be prooven that there is a gap in the market.