[LM24 Race] Safety Cars!

[Gingers4Justice]

I've been to Le Mans a dozen times, my dad twice as much. We'd both like to think we know our stuff yet in a recent conversation, it struck us both that we don't have a foggiest about safety cars.

My main question is this: how come having 2 safety cars is more likely to lose you a lap than 1? Surely that's less likely to happen, in that whenever you have a pitstop, you won't have to wait forever waiting for the safety car to do a full lap, you can just join the next one half a lap later.

[GT6]

there are two sometime 3 safety cars at le mans due to the size of the circuit, if you are able to pit and get out again before the next safety car goes past that is very useful, saves you a pit stop if you are good, if there were only one it would be easy to do that

[PCR]

Originally Posted by GT6

there are two sometime 3 safety cars at le mans due to the size of the circuit

This year there are three Safety Cars at Le Mans and two at each other WEC race.

[Steptoe]

Hopefully we won't see any safety cars, just the odd waved yellows. We don't want it like Sebring 2012.

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I've been to Le Mans a dozen times, my dad twice as much. We'd both like to think we know our stuff yet in a recent conversation, it struck us both that we don't have a foggiest about safety cars.

My main question is this: how come having 2 safety cars is more likely to lose you a lap than 1? Surely that's less likely to happen, in that whenever you have a pitstop, you won't have to wait forever waiting for the safety car to do a full lap, you can just join the next one half a lap later.

The problem is if you are behind the 3rd safety car and come in. The pit lane exit is closed after the train behind a safety has gone by and the cars waiting to exit have left, it is then closed untill the next train goes by, thus if you are in the 3rd train and stop you have to wait for the lead train to go by and so lose a lap, you can't stop do fuel and tyres and shoot out before the first train arrives.

[Simmi]

There's too much pot luck about the whole system which can never be a good thing in a race with such high stakes.

[valedave]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

The problem is if you are behind the 3rd safety car and come in. The pit lane exit is closed after the train behind a safety has gone by and the cars waiting to exit have left, it is then closed untill the next train goes by, thus if you are in the 3rd train and stop you have to wait for the lead train to go by and so lose a lap, you can't stop do fuel and tyres and shoot out before the first train arrives.

Losing a lap depends where the leader/all the other cars are though surely? The leader isn't always behind the safety car that comes onto the track at start/finish.

Say the entire field are behind SC#2 and you are alone behind SC#3. You pit, wait at the end of the pitlane to join SC#1, you won't have lost a lap on the rest of the field, simply a couple of minutes (which every loses when they pit anyway).

In short, pitting behind the safety car is disadvantageous so it's always worth staying out as long as you can BUT, if the safety car is out for an extended period of time and everyone in the field or in each respective class pits the same amount of times under safety car conditions, everyone will lose the same amount of time by pitting, all things being equal. That's a direct result of being held at pit exit.

Sure, the gaps between each safety car will extend or reduce on-track gaps, but there's not really much that can be done about that. The only thing that annoys me is when the safety cars travel at different speeds. The race direction must ensure that they come in at precisely the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the SC system could be improved at Le Mans (or even removed and Code 60 implemented instead), but some of the stick the SCs and race directors get is unwarranted.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Simmi

There's too much pot luck about the whole system which can never be a good thing in a race with such high stakes.

Have to agree. A more scientific and properly controlled approach is needed in a multiple safety car situation.....not that I have the answer.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Have to agree. A more scientific and properly controlled approach is needed in a multiple safety car situation.....not that I have the answer.

I don't think anybody has the perfect answer. I venture to suggest that the ACO has adopted probably the 'least unfair' system (with 3 safety cars) and I remember (many years ago) hearing Mario Andretti say quite simply "You win some - you lose some"
That's probably the best that you can get.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by johngee

I don't think anybody has the perfect answer. I venture to suggest that the ACO has adopted probably the 'least unfair' system (with 3 safety cars) and I remember (many years ago) hearing Mario Andretti say quite simply "You win some - you lose some"
That's probably the best that you can get.

My frustration is mainly with the inability of race control to coordinate the implementation of the safety cars at the beginning of a safety car period, and the release. There have been instances when one of the safety cars has either been slow to take to the track or held their 'train' for considerably longer than the other safety car(s) at the end of a safety car period. I have seen nothing to suggest a later release is compensation for that safety car having been later on track, but I may be wrong.

When we see finishes as close as we did last year, and so many safety car periods, it does make you wonder what impact the lack of safety car coordination may have had. Just my 2p.

[valedave]

I agree; that's the crux here. Hopefully they get that sorted this year. Added transparency, such as a race control radio link like in Spa, would be great too.

As for losing leads or losing time when pitting: "that's racing".

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

My frustration is mainly with the inability of race control to coordinate the implementation of the safety cars at the beginning of a safety car period, and the release. There have been instances when one of the safety cars has either been slow to take to the track or held their 'train' for considerably longer than the other safety car(s) at the end of a safety car period. I have seen nothing to suggest a later release is compensation for that safety car having been later on track, but I may be wrong.

When we see finishes as close as we did last year, and so many safety car periods, it does make you wonder what impact the lack of safety car coordination may have had. Just my 2p.

I think your opinion is worth more than 2p ..... at least 1 euro? .
Given the geography of the circuit and the positioning of the safety car slip roads, I think that perfect and complete coordination of deployment and release is just not possible - I think that the ACO race control is as professional as you can get but nothing, in the midst of a 24 hour race, can be perfect 100% of the time.

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by valedave

Losing a lap depends where the leader/all the other cars are though surely? The leader isn't always behind the safety car that comes onto the track at start/finish.

Say the entire field are behind SC#2 and you are alone behind SC#3. You pit, wait at the end of the pitlane to join SC#1, you won't have lost a lap on the rest of the field, simply a couple of minutes (which every loses when they pit anyway).

In short, pitting behind the safety car is disadvantageous so it's always worth staying out as long as you can BUT, if the safety car is out for an extended period of time and everyone in the field or in each respective class pits the same amount of times under safety car conditions, everyone will lose the same amount of time by pitting, all things being equal. That's a direct result of being held at pit exit.

Sure, the gaps between each safety car will extend or reduce on-track gaps, but there's not really much that can be done about that. The only thing that annoys me is when the safety cars travel at different speeds. The race direction must ensure that they come in at precisely the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the SC system could be improved at Le Mans (or even removed and Code 60 implemented instead), but some of the stick the SCs and race directors get is unwarranted.

Yes, I understand all that, I was just trying to keep it simple for a ginger to understand

[AstonGeoff]

At the end of the day, what do you want, safety cars that control the pace, or a red flag that stops the race? If you red flag the race then you have problems with cars getting cold, and then have to run a few laps behind the safety car anyway just for safety!

Some other endurance series run a thing called Code 60 where everyone has to run at 60kph, not really feasable at this level I don't think, although readily controllabled using something like the pit lane spead limiter mI would have thought.

Safety cars may not be perfect but it's not a bad solution, it's just the way they are deployed that can be the issue.

[GT6]

It would be lovely to think there will be no safety cars out this year but with the way things are now they will bring them out for just about any reason even if a car hits a pigeon, (do they have pigeons in france or have they eaten them all)

[Prometheus]

Ah, just noticed that this topic is not only discussed in the Delta Wing thread, so I'll repost my opinion here:

The 3 safety car solution at Le Mans is actually quite a good and fair solution, as long as you want/need to have Safety Cars (I'd generally prefer Code 60/100/whatever).

With 3 SCs you keep at least some of the time differences that teams and drivers fought for over hours. If you put them all in one queue, any margin except lap (dis)advantages will be lost which is the most unfair it can get, esp. on such a long track!

If you do a pit stop under the current safety car rules, you will loose one third of the lap because you have to wait for the next SC - back under green that would be around 1'10. If you do a pit stop under green, you loose more or less the same amount of time! If you loose a lap this way stopping under yellow - well you would in most cases also have lost it under green. What's unfair about that? Beaing allowed to go back into your original queue and losing no time at all by stopping would be far more unfair.