The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Adam43]

We don't have to post everything twice. ;-)

On the other hand it might allow other aspects to not get drowned out. If we can cope with two thoughts at once. Honestly is it really overly complicated and difficult to identify if you are discussing Toyota General or this years car specifically?
It might be nice for some users more interested in the technical than the politics. I do accept that as a rule us Sportscar fans do fear change though.

Let's give it a go and try. If it doesn't work we shall know that we really are simply souls and know how next time. Hopefully this will promote more varied and interesting discussion.

[TF110]

Think the new thread titled TS040 should center around that car. If info from the TS030 shows up (like the motorsport illustrated japanese magazine) posting here would be better? Plus theres rumors of Lexus (Toyota) having a GT(3?) car. That may be a "Never ending Toyota return to LeMans (GT) saga"?

[Coldasice]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

I remember Vasselon did said that they will stick to the mature powertrain of 3.4 V8 plus capacitor

Whether he did say that, I highly doubt that, for the obvious reason already mentioned of the TS030 engine internals being in a motorsports magazine.

It would be suicide for Toyota to allow detailed pictures of the TS030 engine internals in a magazine and to base the TS040 engine directly off the TS030 engine.

Toyota is extremely secretive about their top-end projects. They'd never allow permission for those magazine shots, unless the TS030 engine is now highly outdated. This is exactly what I believe the case to be.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Rumor was that TMG would develop a larger capacity version of that engine.

Whether or not it'll be based exactly on the RV8 family or will be an "addition" to the family (like Nissan did with the VHR engines, some were purpose built engines, some were based on the VH and VK V8 road engines) is currently unknown.

Many rumors are out there, but this is the one I think is most likely to be reality.

Also I think in reality, it will only be loosely "based" on the RV8 family. By loosely, I mean possibly sharing the same or similar bank angle, and basic fundamental things like that.

Otherwise, I believe the TS040 engine is going to be significantly different from the TS030 engine.

The RV8 engine design originated in 2003. Since then, different variants and improved versions have been raced. The RV8 version used in the TS030 is itself a revised and modified version of the RV8KLM used by Rebellion, which is already a modified and revised version of the 4.0L RV8 used in various racing cars by Toyota.

There were rumors a long time ago that the TS030 was using a "brand new" RV8 design, but I don't believe that. It has the exact same displacement as the RV8K that's been raced for several years now. Toyota also knew, before even re-entering Le Mans, that the rules would be changing in 2014.

Toyota looks at things from a long-term point of view. I highly doubt they went with a "brand new" RV8K 3.4L design just for the TS030, knowing the rules would change in 2014 and allow more open-ended powertrain options.

I think all along Toyota planned to have the RV8 variant in the TS030 as a highly modified and tuned version of the existing RV8 engine, and then go for a new design for the TS040. So in general I believe it the TS030 engine to be pushing the aged RV8 design near its limits.

I do strongly believe that the TS040 engine will be a brand new design with only a very loose connection to the RV8 family, regardless of whether or not it's called an RV8*.

Besides, a large displacement, lower revving V8 makes a lot of sense for Le Mans and the WEC. Years ago Toyota had great success in American Le Mans, racing a Lexus prototype car with a 4.3L V8 and then later a 5.0L V8. The success included several wins at the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona. I think this is exactly the powertrain strategy Toyota decided on for the TS040, combined with a very advanced hybrid system.

[Japanese Samurai]

TS030 engine is revealed. (Click the cover!)
http://www.as-books.jp/books/info.php?no=MFS20121221

[TF110]

Wow, very detailed. I can't translate the article, but does it mention anything on the engine efficiency or materials used (con rods etc.)?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

TS030 engine is revealed. (Click the cover!)
http://www.as-books.jp/books/info.php?no=MFS20121221

Thanks. Direct links to the pictures (sadly very small in preview):

[Victor_RO]

Is THS-R the designation for the engine or for the whole powertrain (engine + KERS)?

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/ima...hr-graphic.pdf it is the whole drivetrain: TOYOTA HYBRID System – Racing (THS-R).

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/ima...hr-graphic.pdf it is the whole drivetrain: TOYOTA HYBRID System – Racing (THS-R).

Do we get a chance to see the gearbox and the MGU integrated therein ?

[TF110]

Only pictures are those shown in this thread. No supercap. Hopefully our friend, Samurai San will translate some of the text.

[kurski]

Alex Wurz: In Depth.

[Rennen]

I can tell you this, of all the Teams that I have been a guest of, Peugoet were by far the most reluctant to let us into the garage when the car was being worked on...far more secretive than even F1...In contrast the TMG team have been the most accessable and friendly...which considering the TS030 is the most technically advanced car racing in any series or formula anywhere in the world...is very refreshing! All power to them next season.

[kurski]

Kazuki Nakajima interview.

[TF110]

Nakajima will more than likely put his Japanese racing first again next year. I think bringing Conway in is to take the load off Wurz and Lapierre. But what else they do with him interests me.

[Japanese Samurai]

I bought Motor Fan illustrated magazine today.
But no new infomation.

Revealed TS030 engine parts are 2012 and 2013 spec.
-Piston: 2012 and 2013 spec.
-Exhaust: 4-1 type exhaust:2012 spec / 4-2-1 type exhaust:2013 spec
-Other parts: no mention (no update?).

[tomerswayler]

Hi ten tenths!

@samurai: Does the motor fan magazine mention anything about the bore or stroke and the engine speed? What does the small diagram show?

Thanks, tom

[Aysedasi]

Welcome Tom

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

I bought Motor Fan illustrated magazine today.
But no new infomation.

Revealed TS030 engine parts are 2012 and 2013 spec.
-Piston: 2012 and 2013 spec.
-Exhaust: 4-1 type exhaust:2012 spec / 4-2-1 type exhaust:2013 spec
-Other parts: no mention (no update?).

I noticed the 4-2-1 exhaust header and the other 4-1, interesting to see them 'upgrade' to the 4 into 2.

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

Does the motor fan magazine mention anything about the bore or stroke and the engine speed?

No mention.

What does the small diagram show?

This picture shows simulation of Salthe circuit.
1) engine speed (blue), 2) car speed (yellow) and 3) engine/hybrid power output (red).
Red part shows Hybrid power output.

[tomerswayler]

Thanks for your reply, samurai, although my request was about the small diagram on the page below and what the target region (circle) means. Sorry for that.



And from the picture you posted, is it possible to read the engine speed axis? If so, whats the max and min engine speed on the straight?

[Japanese Samurai]

It shows thermal efficiency of engine.(but no mention of TS030 figures)
*Thermal efficiency(vertical axis)/Year(horizontal axis)

No figures.

[tomerswayler]

Thanks again!
More questions to come...

What is the range of the vertical efficiency axis?
What do the descriptions in the diagram point to?

In the meantime i looked at the frequencies from the audio part of this onboard video of the TS030 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cpGOAA1YlA ) and calculated from that a maximum engine rpm of about 5200 rpm. Can anybody confirm this rev?

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

What is the range of the vertical efficiency axis?
What do the descriptions in the diagram point to?

50(%)
45
40
35
30
25
--1970-1980-1990-2000-2010-2020(year)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

Thanks again!
More questions to come...

What is the range of the vertical efficiency axis?
What do the descriptions in the diagram point to?

In the meantime i looked at the frequencies from the audio part of this onboard video of the TS030 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cpGOAA1YlA ) and calculated from that a maximum engine rpm of about 5200 rpm. Can anybody confirm this rev?

Its probably a lot higher than 5200rpm. Maybe even double that. Would not be too surprised to see next year's engine be that low (if increased in displacement).

[MyNameIsNigel]

Thanks Japanese Samurai. Is there a digital version of the magazine available somewhere ?