Prospective new teams for the FIA F1 World Championship.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Sometimes with some posts, I really wish we had a facepalm emoji to use. But while the list of supported emoji is decently large, it has some odd ones. So maybe I just repurpose the ferret emoji for facepalms. I am not sure what social situation would be appropriate for the "ferret emoji"




Richard

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Is the - - 'DOH!' the closest to a facepalm? Although I like the use of the ferret in these situations too... Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ohh... your right. So I will use it for this situation. My own facepalm moment..



So long Ferret. I may never use you again.



Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Note to self. I shouldn't allow myself to get annoyed with doubtless well-meaning people who write inaccurate and plain wrong posts pretty much daily.

So to be fair, I wanted to provide a more positive reply. I have learned that while most everyone here is very passionate about motorsports and F1 in particular how they interact with the sport and their knowledge levels vary and also vary by sub-topic. For example there will be people who make a living such as yourself by being directly in the sport and others who are just fans. As to knowledge, I am always amazed as the level of historical knowledge that some people have. Personally I am generally more interested in the technology side and also sometimes consider myself to be a bit of a rules wonk.

So I feel VERY inadequate around deep historic historic discussions (such as the excellent "Motorsports Quiz" thread), but feel more confident to speak to some technical or rules topics. And I think at some point I had the epiphany that people who are really smart in one area of F1 can say really dumb (or very uninformed) things about other areas of F1. And this applies to most everyone regardless of how you are involved in the sport. Myself included. So when pointing out an error in another post, I try to have some level of courteous goodwill toward others. I don't always act to the level I expect of myself, but I do try to understand that everyone is not an expert on everything. In short, give people some slack.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In comparison to other sports - I see similarities with the current set up and the franchise model of some US Sports...I guess in terms of F1, perhaps we are reaching a situation (particularly when it comes to venues and teams) where a conference style approach would be an option? One series running in Europe, the other running in the Americas, Asia etc. Then the top teams from each conference coming together for a 3-race series in the Arab States?

so an intriguing idea/potential future and as someone who has followed the conference driven N.American sports model their whole life (NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, NCAA football and basketball) there is a lot to be admired about such systems.

a lot against such systems as well but for sure a fun idea to explore especially among fans who like to talk about things, despite our imperfect knowledge, simply because its fun to talk about things among likeminded fans!

anyways, you have of course already mentioned that this is something that would take time and require more teams etc but the immediate question it brings to my mind is just how many new teams would we like to see?

for myself i am more than content with the current 10 (finally starting to see a healthier overall grid, i like the cap, and want to see more of this process play out before adding more teams and complications).

some i believe would like to see 1-3 more teams so a retry of when F1 last opened up its doors.

but your post and a few others allude to some favouring many many more then that ultimately being let in?

worth setting up a poll to canvas the community?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I guess in terms of F1, perhaps we are reaching a situation (particularly when it comes to venues and teams) where a conference style approach would be an option? One series running in Europe, the other running in the Americas, Asia etc. Then the top teams from each conference coming together for a 3-race series in the Arab States?

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The problem with a conference style approach is, the vast majority of the teams are based in Europe.

I think the idea of breaking up a single large season into some type of multiple mini-championships with a condensed late season winner take all runoff has merit. I think it both facilitates larger number of events as well as expansion of teams. All running to the same technical, sporting and financial regulations.

I don't think it needs to be based upon geolocation of teams because as already mentioned, those are mostly Europe/UK based. But there would be a number of structural challenges...

* You can't load up a single conference with all of the historic events. So how do you divide those up?
* Some circuits may have some level of "time of year" windows that avoid local weather/climate issues.
* You can't load up single conferences with top teams. How to distribute teams?

I really don't follow other sports at all. I know some operate in this way. And I think some allow for cross conference play prior to some type of end of season battle (playoffs). So I am curious if concepts and lessons learned in other sports/series could be applied here.

I don't know what others think of this idea. I think it would be a fantastic idea for a "what if" thread that would allow people to post their ideas on hypothetical conferences, how end of seasons playoffs might work and schedules for all of this. If people agree, I can kick off a thread. It might be fun.

Would this be contrary to how F1 is run today? Yes and no. I believe there is precedent for this in the past in some ways with either non-championship races and/or national/regional championships

Richard

[midgetman]

They could do that and call the run offs some kind of fancy names like, ooh I don't know, perhaps "Grand Prize" races. Where only the regional champions, the best of the best, compete.

Some kind of return to quality would ensue, making sure that it's not the size of your wallet that buys the seat.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Out of interest, in what other sports can you just rock up and join the top table when you choose to do so?

Its not that anyone can "just rock up", its that their proposed competition gets to veto it because it harms their possible income. How many top level sports do the competitors get to decide if others can join? That decision should be up to the rule makers and overarching control body.

Certainly, the current entrants should have a say and maybe a vote, but nobody in any business should be allowed to stop another company competing against them for purely financial reasons.

I was going to start an 11 10ths forum but every time I tried11/10ths it crashed.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t think we need any series for proposed teams need to compete in. Haas didn’t need it, they just proved they were ready. I am sure Andretti are proving they are ready too, they just need an entry

Thats the problem, here we have a company banging on the door to start business and they are being forbidden because their competitors dont want the competition. Surely there are anti trust and anti competition considerations.

And having a B class doesnt stop Andretti etc jumping in the deep end, it just opens the door for a team to "Test the waters" for a much cheaper spend, knowing they likely wont be winning in the first few years.

Maybe after 3 years the B class customer team either has to go A class or go home. Maybe the bottom A class team gets relegated to B, and the top B class entitled to A class. Yes that would need a LOT of sorting and all sorts of legal and financial clauses beyond my brain. But other sports do it. And when you consider top footballers and basketballers etc get paid 10s or 100s of millions and their team could get relegated, that means that a top p0rofessional team with a yearly budget of over in the 100 miliion plus club, are willing to compete under that framework.

Anything can be done if instead of just saying NO people lets explore and war game this. Be productive and not just a nay sayer
.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Ohh... your right. So I will use it for this situation. My own facepalm moment..



So long Ferret. I may never use you again.



Richard

As an animal rights activist (watch for me waving a huge banner on the track lap 1, corner 5 at a race soon) I can only say

SAVE THE FERRET!!!
SAVE THE FERRET!!!

#F14FERRETS join now!
#F14

[Aysedasi]

We should never forget that we have a discussion forum here, full of opinions, ranging from bang on the money stuff to the outrageously inaccurate and wholly unbelievable. That's actually what makes it fun and results in lively debate. We all pick up on things we think (or even know) to be inaccurate and that's fine. What isn't fine is responding pompously or treating others with disrespect when you believe they're wrong. The ability to quote accurate information is wonderful and we all benefit from it - if we believe it, which is why sources are often useful, and that's something which is often (persistently) lacking.....

[S griffin]

We’ve lost quite a few teams and hardly any new ones have come in recently. Hopefully we will see one or two more next year. It will give more opportunities to drivers. Just need to keep an eye on any news F1 has. Watch this space

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We’ve lost quite a few teams and hardly any new ones have come in recently. Hopefully we will see one or two more next year. It will give more opportunities to drivers. Just need to keep an eye on any news F1 has. Watch this space

????!!!!!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chunterer

????!!!!!

Sorry about that. Just wondering when we’re gonna get an announcement on anyone joining next year. There’s been no sign of any announcement and we’re already in August. So hopefully sooner rather than later

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Sorry about that. Just wondering when we’re gonna get an announcement on anyone joining next year. There’s been no sign of any announcement and we’re already in August. So hopefully sooner rather than later

I have read somewhere that FIA said in late July that they expect to make a decision in the 4-6 week timeframe. So I would think end of August, mid-September if they keep to that schedule.

Regarding losing teams. I think we have generally been bouncing around 10-11 teams for over a decade and 10 teams for a decently long time. For the most part it is generally the same organizations. Sometimes changing hands and sometimes rebranding.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

There have been 10 teams since 2017:

[S griffin]

Oh yes, I think I recall reading about that now. Wonder if they will give us a teaser before the announcement is made or if they’ll just spring it on us like that? Just have to keep a look out for the next 3-4 weeks at most

As for teams going, I was thinking more about teams that went completely. Like the 3 teams that joined in 2010. None of them survived and since Haas, we’ve had no more startups join

[Tourer]

Guenther reckons that Haas wouldn't have been able to join if they were aiming to do so today..

If any of the organisations that have applied get in, for sure they'll have a big challenge ahead of them and a big mountain to climb. Even recruiting staff with current F1 experience will not be easy with extending gardening leave periods and all that.

Interesting times, no doubt about it........

[Alan52]

Joe Saward wrote today in his blog that all the FIA are doing -and all they can do-is hand over their findings to Liberty saying they can’t see anything that would disbar Andretti from being given an entry.
Then the inmates running the asylum can tell Liberty to not bring anyone else into the cartel because their percentage of the money would reduce.Disregarding that the amount of money they make in the Liberty/Netflix era has massively increased and the teams themselves have done nothing to cause that increase.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Joe Saward wrote today in his blog that all the FIA are doing -and all they can do-is hand over their findings to Liberty saying they can’t see anything that would disbar Andretti from being given an entry.
Then the inmates running the asylum can tell Liberty to not bring anyone else into the cartel because their percentage of the money would reduce.Disregarding that the amount of money they make in the Liberty/Netflix era has massively increased and the teams themselves have done nothing to cause that increase.

I found Joe's blog post interesting. You call out the clause that a new entry can't effectively hurt the existing entries from a financial perspective (really about impact to prize money). Also that a new Concorde agreement will be negotiated in 2026 and it is expected that the bar will be lifted even higher (with respect to anti-dilution funding).

If 2026 negotiations allows existing teams to make it harder, and Liberty wants a new team and also wants a US team, now is the time to strike. If not, then I just see the bar raised so high in the future that it becomes a nearly closed system and the only way in is to buy an existing entry.

I wonder if Liberty and Andretti might reach some type of creative agreement in which they do pay the dilution fee, but also don't take any prize money (not cutting the prize pie into smaller pieces) to negate the other clause. This would be a financial hit in the short term for Andretti, but then Andretti can ride along until 2026 negotiations (not far off) as an equal partner and also with a significant asset in it's pocket (entry in the championship).

Richard

[Richard C]

Andretti rebranding as "Andretti Global". No doubt the F1 bid is part of this.

https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/n...obal/10516702/

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Andretti rebranding as "Andretti Global". No doubt the F1 bid is part of this.

https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/n...obal/10516702/

Richard

Good luck with that. No hope

[bjohnsonsmith]

Along with the rebranding, Andretti is also building a new facility that broke ground in December last year and is scheduled to open in 2025.




However, the firm in charge of Andretti Global's new facility, is being sued for $11.3 million.

This article from IndyStar has the details.

https://eu.indystar.com/story/sports...p/70250771007/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Good luck with that. No hope

I think it is not for sure one way or the other, but I tend to think it may be more likely to happen than not. Just my humble opinion.

My understanding is that it must go through the FIA process (Andretti will probably will be accepted I think some of the other candidates will not) and then F1 Group/FOM has to agree to grant the entry. While teams have some leverage (See Joe Saward's recent post), and there are some hoops to jump through (seems to be mostly financial) I don't think they have individual veto rights or that have to all agree before a new team is accepted. As I mentioned they have some leverage on the financial impact side, but if FOM wants this to happen, they may be able to make it work by spreading some money around to alleviate some of those financial concerns.

But... if I am looking to an eager FOM to make this happen. There is the assumption that they do want this (maybe they are not that excited) and second, that they have money to grease some skids (maybe they don't have it).

I anecdotally hear that the Vegas work is quite expensive, so maybe now is a rough time to spend money to help bring ANY team into F1 given how much is flowing out. But also, I think it will be much harder to do in the future. So if FOM wants a new team, now is the time to make it work.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

However, the firm in charge of Andretti Global's new facility, is being sued for $11.3 million.

I just read the article and as best as I can tell, the suit is in the opposite direction. It sounds like Andretti created a legal entity for the new facility (Cardinal XLIII) and Cardinal hired a firm to manage the project (Bradford Allen Reality Services) and that the design/build firm (Dillon) contacted Bradford Allen about late payments and Bradford Allen tried to terminate (or reduce) the contract with Dillion. In short, contractor is suing Andretti (Andretti representative). Or maybe I read the intent of your post backward.

Sounds like rich people drama to me.

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think it is not for sure one way or the other, but I tend to think it may be more likely to happen than not. Just my humble opinion.

My understanding is that it must go through the FIA process (Andretti will probably will be accepted I think some of the other candidates will not) and then F1 Group/FOM has to agree to grant the entry. While teams have some leverage (See Joe Saward's recent post), and there are some hoops to jump through (seems to be mostly financial) I don't think they have individual veto rights or that have to all agree before a new team is accepted. As I mentioned they have some leverage on the financial impact side, but if FOM wants this to happen, they may be able to make it work by spreading some money around to alleviate some of those financial concerns.

But... if I am looking to an eager FOM to make this happen. There is the assumption that they do want this (maybe they are not that excited) and second, that they have money to grease some skids (maybe they don't have it).

I anecdotally hear that the Vegas work is quite expensive, so maybe now is a rough time to spend money to help bring ANY team into F1 given how much is flowing out. But also, I think it will be much harder to do in the future. So if FOM wants a new team, now is the time to make it work.

Richard

I think FOM is more concerned with placating the existing teams than acting in their own interest.The Andretti team is a no brainer from their point of view but they are at best cold towards the idea.