T Break thread 2023

[Gerard C]

Well done, Peter. Official YT (YouTube) teaser here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVuIaNlaf0w

I think your dates are good ones not to be confused with UTAC's ones announcing 5/6 October… (https://www.utac.com/fr/annonce-du-calendrier-2024/)

[Lancsbreaker]

So, anyone on here splashed out 51.7 million on the 250 GTO? I thought about it, but a red Ferrari is just a bit of a cliche, don't you think?

[Peter Mallett]

It's those Borrani wheels, so passè

[midgetman]

I've just watched the first part of Disney's Keanu Reeves documentary about Brawn GP.

A proper, serous programme about F1 at last, no "sleb" interviews or silly gimmicks to ramp up the artificial tension, just the personalities involved. Looking forward to the rest of the series when I get chance to watch it.

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[Paul D]

Come on Richard, don't sensationalise it: that 51.7 million is US dollars - it only works out at about 42 million quid, so small change really, and surely a bargain?

After all, it will be eligible for all the best events darling!

As an aside - I knew a guy who had a 250 GTO many years ago. Although not worth the sort of money mentioned above, it was still worth several million even back then, and he used to drive around in it like it was just an ordinary car, he wasn't in the least bit precious about it. Needless to say, he did have a few bob, and owned several other rare Ferraris, as well as an original 289 Cobra complete with the registration 'AC 289'!

[Lancsbreaker]

Wow, its all gone very quiet in this section of the Forum - not a single post in Historic Racing Today since the early hours of the 16th.......


For those of you who enjoy CSCC events, somewhat surprised to see the other day that on top of CSCC hosting some MGCC races next year, they are also taking on the former Kumho BMW Championship in 2024.........


I foresee some very cluttered mixed grids or a few noses being put out of joint.... although I know the Apothecary who used to post here - but claims he has now retired - used to race in both Kumho and CSCC Modern Classic events...

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Wow, its all gone very quiet in this section of the Forum - not a single post in Historic Racing Today since the early hours of the 16th.......


For those of you who enjoy CSCC events, somewhat surprised to see the other day that on top of CSCC hosting some MGCC races next year, they are also taking on the former Kumho BMW Championship in 2024.........


I foresee some very cluttered mixed grids or a few noses being put out of joint.... although I know the Apothecary who used to post here - but claims he has now retired - used to race in both Kumho and CSCC Modern Classic events...

The Jaguars are coming back, too.
The club are doing everything possible to ensure full grids, especially as it seems clear that the difference between a financially successful meeting and a poor one may only be a few cars on each grid.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I've just watched the first part of Disney's Keanu Reeves documentary about Brawn GP.

A proper, serous programme about F1 at last, no "sleb" interviews or silly gimmicks to ramp up the artificial tension, just the personalities involved. Looking forward to the rest of the series when I get chance to watch it.

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Thanks for the reminder about that, just watched the first part .and like you said , worth the time .
Just got to find time for the next 3 hours of it .

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by andy97

The Jaguars are coming back, too.
The club are doing everything possible to ensure full grids, especially as it seems clear that the difference between a financially successful meeting and a poor one may only be a few cars on each grid.

I've just read the CSCC Chairman's report to this weekend's AGM - which explains the rationale after the Club has likely lost a significant amount this year:


"It is obvious to us that the cost-of-living crisis, coupled with increases in circuit hire and running costs are all contributing to lower entry numbers, a problem faced not just by us, but by other organisers. Our membership numbers remain as strong as ever, with members simply racing at less rounds on average.
Because of this, your directors and committee understand that we cannot continue without taking some positive steps forward. Make no mistake, we are not the only club looking at differing ways forward, but we believe by welcoming our new series and championships into the CSCC fold we can stem the flow of declining entries.

So, for 2024 we welcome and re-welcome the following –

CSCC MG Trophy championship, and CSCC Jaguar Racing championship, both of whom will be sharing grids at our race meetings.

CSCC BMW Championship (formerly Kumho), who will be sharing grids with our Open series.

The Lackford Engineering MG Midget & Sprite Challenge, which now gives us by far the largest numbers of racing Spridgets in the UK.

All of the competitors in these ‘new to us’ categories, will be full CSCC members, thus swelling our numbers.

I would like to quell any concerns regarding our existing series. These decisions to integrate the above championships into our existing series and race meetings have not been taken lightly. Many hundreds of man hours have been taken up with meetings and research, but the directors and committee firmly believe this is the way forward for the club, extending the life of all of our existing series whilst welcoming new members."

[Peter Mallett]

The Jaguars were running with the CTCRC, not entirley sure why they'd move back to the CSCC since CTCRC seems to be doing quite well, possibly bucking the trend.

But, it is of concern that organisers are being forced into difficult decisions due to cost of living. Circuit hire will no doubt increase again next year thereby hitting entry fees. Then there's the cost of safety gear which, even if you only race in the UK, does need to be replaced after a few years.

Overall there are too many clubs/organisers chasing ever fewer racers (not a new concept), which is a shame for those who have loyalties to one or two clubs, I can't help thinking the MGCC racers are feeling somewhat peeved.

[Mike Harte]

It is very unfortunate, but nothing totally new. Back in the 60s, apart from racing at Snetterton whenever I could afford to - basically because I loved that old circuit as it suited my car - I competed in the Redex Special Saloon Championship which had races at Brands Indy, Mallory, Oulton, Thruxton and Snetterton. However, to be able to race in every round of the championship, I remember I had to be a member of the BRSCC and the BARC as well as one or other local clubs as they hosted some of the various rounds.

It all became really expensive just to get an entry, all apart from the costs of keeping the car competition ready, and luckily I didn't need to pay someone to do that for me.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The Jaguars were running with the CTCRC, not entirley sure why they'd move back to the CSCC since CTCRC seems to be doing quite well, possibly bucking the trend.

I wonder if, owing to economics, more CTCRC series will be sharing grids in 2024. When this has occured previously, the Jaguars have generally shared with the much quicker Classic Thunder cars. Moving to the CSCC and sharing with the MG Trophy field possibly makes for a more equal field.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by kipper

I wonder if, owing to economics, more CTCRC series will be sharing grids in 2024. When this has occured previously, the Jaguars have generally shared with the much quicker Classic Thunder cars. Moving to the CSCC and sharing with the MG Trophy field possibly makes for a more equal field.

The Jags did of course race on CSCC programmes, though not, as far as I can remember, as CSCC series, until 2020.

[Peter Mallett]

A bit more info/backgrond here: https://www.classicsportscarclub.co....2-4bf0b0592c06

[coppice]

It is through economic necessity , but I am pleased that CSCC continues to adapt and survive. Unlike some organisers , it recognises that decent size grids with a diversity of cars are in everyone's interests , and in recent years this philosophy has almost become the club USP.

When I was doing some scribbling for them I remember the combination of joy and trepidation I'd feel at their showpiece events at Brands and Silverstone , with utterly immense entries , often including some unexpected cars and drivers .I didn't expect to find myself ogling over an ex DTM Audi , nor to be interviewing a former McLaren and Ferrari F1 designer.

[midgetman]

Its been coming for years hasn't it? How many times have we shouted "too many grids, not enough cars"?

Well now it's happening. Full marks to the CSCC for being in the position to mop up all the stragglers. I'll be honest I'm amazed it's taken so long for racing to start to implode in such a way. Big, various grids will help racers and spectators alike. Really does it matter if you're dicing with an MG or a Jaguar, as long as you're having a race rather than driving round in what is in effect an over priced test session?

Unfortunately MiniMM is a victim of the change. His Midget-Nissan was built for the MGCC Midget series but the CSCC doesn't allow engine swaps so he's out. He's struggling to find a series to race in ATM, Time Attack seems welcoming so hopefully he'll get a couple of races a year anyway.

One other victim appears to be MG Live. With no race series Silverstone isn't the ideal place for MGCC to hold an international weekend, it appears they're off elsewhere for '24.

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[Mike Harte]

Max, CSCC allow motorbike engines in their Special Saloon & Modsports series, so I am surprised that you say that the Toyota engine wouldn't be permitted. And don't they also have invitation classes in their races?

It may be worth having a chat with Andy Wilson or Danny Morris (both are drivers representatives) to get their opinion.

[John Elwin]

I'm a bit out of touch with current club racing, but is the current malaise the end result of the proliferation of one make/model racing?

In the old days we predominantly had mod saloons, modsports & the like which seemed to work well. The only one-make racing was Mini Se7en's which was fine.

Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to go back to that sort of scenario, or are there too many vested interests?

[Gerard C]

The increase in price re historics meetings is worrying here. Not only the entry fees, but hidden costes like FP's and garage rent are now totally out of reach of any amateur purse. Not mentioning the driver licence and extra insurances becoming mandatory (third party). Bad weather for the poor…

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Max, CSCC allow motorbike engines in their Special Saloon & Modsports series, so I am surprised that you say that the Toyota engine wouldn't be permitted. And don't they also have invitation classes in their races?

It may be worth having a chat with Andy Wilson or Danny Morris (both are drivers representatives) to get their opinion.

The following is taken from the CSCC Modsports/Saloon regs:

Engine and Transmission - Classic Engine Classes
Any engine originally fitted to a ‘period’ motor car will be eligible (i.e. up to the end of 1993), including derivative engine blocks which must also have been available in
period.
Front-engined cars: The rear of the gearbox housing (not including the tail shaft or gear lever mechanism) must not pass beyond the centre-point of the original
wheelbase dimension. However, the use of a transaxle in a front-engined RWD car is permitted, but the rear face of the engine block must remain no closer than 450mm
from the centre-point of the original wheelbase dimension.
Rear-engined cars: The most forward casting of the mounted engine must not pass beyond the centre-point of the original wheelbase dimension.
Motor cycle engines can only be fitted to a car that was originally constructed for racing with a motor cycle engine ‘in period’, but CANNOT be turbo or supercharged.
Cars with 4WD are NOT allowed. Clutch systems and differential must be mechanical with LSD allowed. Sequential gearboxes are eligible. Paddle-change systems can only
be mechanically operated by way of cables or rods, NOT electronically. Flatshift, blipper-systems, traction-control, wheel-speed sensors and aftermarket/non standard
ABS are NOT permitted. Engine management/ECU is free but must have all features mentioned in the previous sentence disabled.

[Lancsbreaker]

Having left the EU (pace all Remainers ) UK is at least spared the Vnuk insurance requirement for race cars.....although a fair chunk of a race entry fee does of course go towards the MSUK's insurance.......


I'm sure for many Clubmen the trend identified by CSCC, whereby the same number of racers continue, but competing in less events per year, thereby saving on one or two event entry fees, plus the associated transport and accommodation costs, is the only viable solution. It does of course mean that all the non-event specific costs - PPE, licence, medical etc are spread across less events so each event is more expensive, but something has to give....

[Mike Harte]

Yes, Peter, that is so for classic engines, but they also allow "modern" engines in a separate class within that same rulseset; that is immediately below the paragraphs that you have shown.

[Peter Mallett]

Modern as in derivatives of the original.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Modern as in derivatives of the original.

How can a motorbike engine be a derivative of the original car engine? But regardless, I do think that they do permit other cars in an invitation class when the cars are in "the spirit" rather than original.

[Alan Morgan]

I think flexibility with regulations is the key to inclusivity and encouraging good grid numbers. The tricky part is not disenfranchising loyal members who've been racing for a while.