[LM24] Le Mans 2007: Will it discredit the ACO?

[TWK]

It's always been the case in any sport, where you have intense competition you get more public interest.

Not true. Look no further than professional golf (Tiger) to see the opposite effect. Add the NBA (Jordan's Bulls), NFL (Lombaridi's Packers), MLB (Ruth's Yankees), Boxing (Tyson) for other instances and eras when near absolute domination increased rather than decreased the popularity of a sport or a league.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by TWK

It's always been the case in any sport, where you have intense competition you get more public interest.

Not true. Look no further than professional golf (Tiger) to see the opposite effect. Add the NBA (Jordan's Bulls), NFL (Lombaridi's Packers), MLB (Ruth's Yankees), Boxing (Tyson) for other instances and eras when near absolute domination increased rather than decreased the popularity of a sport or a league.

I think you could add the Ferrari/Schumacher era into that as well!

It has always been the case that a works team is going to have an advantage from better testing, better R & D etc.

I too have seen a fair bit of racing action over the years inc 28 Le mans and counting, numerious 1000km or 6 hour race races and many GP's.

At Le Mans it has rarely been the case that a non works team has been on the pace of a works effort, and apart from a few years when the either the factory teams combusted or did not enter they have always won.

This year will be no different. I expect the Pugs to go for glory and get pole, race into the distance then fall apart, Audi will then swan thru into an easy win, if the reliabilty shown today by the other contenders is a guide, then they too will be all out before 1/2 distance.

I note that 'flat 12 air cooled' is your id, I guess this is because the 917 is your favorite car, good choice, one of mine too. You will however be aware, I am sure that the 917 was created to take full advantages of the rules for Grp 4. Many teams with Prototype cars were pretty peeved that the car was allowed, however the govening body stood firm and we had 3 wonderful years with a majastic car and its rival the 512 (also a grp 4) before it was banned and we all moved on.

You can read the story here.
http://962.com/history/917/index.htm

Back in 1969 would you have been calling for the 917 to be handicapped?

What Audi have done is no different, made a car to to take full advantage of the regs. The more enlightend among us are able to celebrate that. Sadly others are not and see demons.

Your loss.

[courageous]

Originally Posted by canam

...will appear to be a 'fifth' (and winning) class that only certain manufacturers can participate. Not all manufacturers make diesels. The ACO is effectively excluding these players.

The other manufacturers haven't shown up in ages - they have no grounds for complaint, if they had been in the prototype ranks then the ACO would have asked them.

Privateers have come CLOSE recently, but don't you think Audi kind of wanted them to? - a steamroller would not have got publicity (plus why spend £50m to win by a lap when you can spend £5m and win by a minute?)

On the other hand, now they have another factory to fight against the gloves will come off & the Pescarolo/Zytek/Creation will get left behind.

[minimangler]

i don't think the ACO's claim that a works petrol could win is partciularly accurate- the rules are definitely diesel fixed.
if they were equivalent, we'd probably see a petrol win, wouldn't we?
or am i all wrong?

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by minimangler

i don't think the ACO's claim that a works petrol could win is partciularly accurate- the rules are definitely diesel fixed.
if they were equivalent, we'd probably see a petrol win, wouldn't we?
or am i all wrong?

IF there were any WORKS petrol teams out there racing then they would be at a pace level similar to the diesels can manage!!! You won't see a petrol win this year because they are all privateers and just don't have the money to do the same level of R&D as audi and peugeot

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by TWK

Not true. Look no further than professional golf (Tiger) to see the opposite effect. Add the NBA (Jordan's Bulls), NFL (Lombaridi's Packers), MLB (Ruth's Yankees), Boxing (Tyson) for other instances and eras when near absolute domination increased rather than decreased the popularity of a sport or a league.

But you're talking about Superstars, they may raise the profile of a Sport but for actual viewing figures there's nothing like a even contest between 2 or more Superstars to bring in the punters. They may watch the Big games but the David & Goliath contests are a complete turn off.

If there's no competition for an extended period of time then people start to switch over, see Formula 1 in 2004 after 4 years of Ferrari cakewalks. Now the current Audi v Peugeot situation maybe good for Le Mans, but aside from that the LMS and ALMS are suffering in LMP1 because of it.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by zac510

When are Judd coming to the party with their privateer diesel engine? I thought that was what Zurbert was referring to in his post.

I hope they don't. The R10's sound makes me fall asleep.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by minimangler

i don't think the ACO's claim that a works petrol could win is partciularly accurate- the rules are definitely diesel fixed.
if they were equivalent, we'd probably see a petrol win, wouldn't we?
or am i all wrong?

Unless I am very much mistaken a petrol car, the Penske Porsche, running to a type of speeded up ALMs P2 rule has already won this year.

I wonder what a P1 one Porsche would be capable of?

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

But you're talking about Superstars, they may raise the profile of a Sport but for actual viewing figures there's nothing like a even contest between 2 or more Superstars to bring in the punters. They may watch the Big games but the David & Goliath contests are a complete turn off.

If there's no competition for an extended period of time then people start to switch over, see Formula 1 in 2004 after 4 years of Ferrari cakewalks. Now the current Audi v Peugeot situation maybe good for Le Mans, but aside from that the LMS and ALMS are suffering in LMP1 because of it.

But what if David beats Goliath?

As for people switching over, they are not that many to switch off. the LMs is a backwater, did you see the packed grandstands today and I would not imagine the TV audience is huge.

For it to grow then the factories will provide the publicty to ensure it happens. Pesca, Rollcenter, etc while, very good racing teams, do not have the PR clout Audi or Peugeot have.

As for the original question about the ACO being discredited, in case you had not noticed they are French, as are Peugeot and the race is in France. One thing we can be certain of is plenty of support for Peugeot both at the track and in the media, and the club that made it possible for them to return, the ACO.

In France at least they will not.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Unless I am very much mistaken a petrol car, the Penske Porsche, running to a type of speeded up ALMs P2 rule has already won this year.

I wonder what a P1 one Porsche would be capable of?

In ALMS LMP2 has larger restrictors

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I note that 'flat 12 air cooled' is your id, I guess this is because the 917 is your favorite car, good choice, one of mine too. You will however be aware, I am sure that the 917 was created to take full advantages of the rules for Grp 4. Many teams with Prototype cars were pretty peeved that the car was allowed, however the govening body stood firm and we had 3 wonderful years with a majastic car and its rival the 512 (also a grp 4) before it was banned and we all moved on.

917 and 512 were in Group 6

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by Mirage M6

917 and 512 were in Group 6

In 1969 they were in group 4.

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/histappjregs.html

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Mirage M6

917 and 512 were in Group 6

Weren't they on Group 5 rules, versus the Group 6 (proto rules).

And the Can-Ams were on Group 7 rules

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by vorsprung

In 1969 they were in group 4.

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/histappjregs.html

But Ferrari designed and built 512s for 1970. If we are talking about 917 and 512: Group 6

[TWK]

I guess the 962 was the ruin of sports car racing, then. But...but...but...

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Mirage M6

Yes, it's not stupid, but we could have much better situation for Le Mans 2007 than now.

Wait, like the time that a gasoline powered Audi R8 raced other gasoline powered R8s for victory?

[Bob Riebe]

[QUOTE=Nordic]I could be argued that for the last 70 years the rules have favored petrol fuelled cars.QUOTE]

No you can NOT. There is NO BASIS.

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Wait, like the time that a gasoline powered Audi R8 raced other gasoline powered R8s for victory?

I wasn't referring something like that, and you know. Don't manipulate.

[Purist]

I'm pretty sure the Porsche 917s and Ferrari 512s were in Group 5 (so-called silhouette cars as they came to be known in the later 70s). Those two cars in the classification were designated as SP (Sports Prototype), not as GTs. The 3-lite 908 was a P (Prototype) in Group 6. Cars like the Ferrari 275 GTB were in Group 4.

[Nordic]

I am quite sure you will find that the 917 and 512 where both designed to enter a class for production Sports cars, like the GT40 and Lola T70 (Group 4 or Sports 5000)

This allowed them to have a 5000cc engine in place of a 3000cc for the Prototypes (proto 3000) like the Ferrari 312, 908, Matra, alfa T33 etc.

The downside was 50 were needed to be built. However the rules where relaxed and the number dropped to 25 on the advice of the specialist companies like Lola.

Porsche then knocked up 25 and went racing with a massive 2000cc advantage over the others.

The 917 was never a Group 5 car as far as I can tell, and it only ceased to race in Europe when the CC was capped at 3000. The rules for Can Am or group 7 where more flexible and the car contined to race.

[dj4monie]

Well.... I'm just as much of a historian as the rest of us on here.

But this will be the first stiff test Audi has faced since Toyota's TTE operation when on to generally be an also-ran in F1. The Toyota could have won at least twice if it wasn't for accidents in the middle of the night that took out the lead car or tire blowouts.

The all Japanese car just couldn't lap with the Audi's when Ukyo Katayama wasn't in the car. That could have been solved with 3 front line drivers in all the cars.

Be that as it may, I also believe as the ACO does that if and when a serious player wants to run a gas powered car at Le Mans, they rules will be adjusted to help them. Poor Henri is small potatos with no OEM help and the ACO has no interest in helping a fellow countrymen as there is way more world wide media focus and its immediate. They would leave themselves WIDE open to ridicule....

So let's in enjoy the race and no worry about if the ACO will have egg on their face as we already know they could care less unless we all didn't go to the race and didn't watch it on TV and we ALL know that won't happen.

When we'll fans learn if they want CHANGE, stop going and stop watching. Hit them in the wallet and they'll listen to the fans.

[Aysedasi]

Interesting thread.....


Buit discredit, no, I don't think so. But personally I think we have Peugeot to thank for that. I will be very happy indeed with a great battle between Audi and Peugeot - Jeez, we've waited for someone to seriously take on Audi's desperately boring dominance for far too long. I can happily look back for example to 1992 after Balestre and Ecclestone had done their best to destroy sports cars and an awful lot of people didn't bother going to watch such a small field - but I'll remember those stupendous Peugeots and Toyotas for the rest of my days. I'd have gone just to watch them....

Laughing stock of the general public - no, as has been said before, the general public actually know naff-all about sportscar racing and are happy to watch a procession for an hour and a half every couple of weeks and believe it's really great......

[JAG]

Originally Posted by canam

We are all very involved with the petrol vs diesel debate and generally seem to feel that the ACO will only respond with any changes at the end of this year (if they do at all); however, there is a reasonable chance that there will be a diesel walkover that could discredit the very notion of the race and make the ACO a laughing stock of the general public.

Some have cited that the diesel advantage was limited by looking at last year's race. Audi won it and they rarely needed to push. It was the R10s first LM and they did not want to take any chances.

This year with the Pugs in the game, both will be pushing. There is a good chance that it will be 1,2.3.4 for the diesel brigade--with the nearest petrol engined car more than 10 laps adrift in P5.

In the eyes of the general public, there is a good chance that the race will be viewed to have been heavily fixed by the ACO for one of two manufacturers to win it. The bias in favour of the diesels would be clear cut and the ACO would be openly ciriticised for not taking action when the bulk of the sportscar community (including other manufacturers) has warned of this problem (and the ACO has ignored it).

Having had their heads deeply immersed in the sand, they may now have to cover their backs at the same time. The action they take for 2008 may need to be more robust than would have otherwise have been necessary.

The laughing stock are those petrol privateers who can't run a car hard, fast and reliably for 1000k's.

Zytek, Creation Pescarolo can have all the pace in the world, but they can't run reliably, so have zero chance of wnning.

It's no coincidence the best racing in the ALMS has been between the factory P1's and factory P2's, each can take advantage of others slip-up's, they can push hard and expose weak spots. Likewise Audi and Peugeot will push each other, potentially, to the point of taking each other out, leaving the win for a privateer.

Zytek had half a cance of a decent finish at Valencia, they were catching both Peugeots (who cares if the Peugeots had more pace in hand, Zytek were closing them down at that point) but dropped out 10 minutes before a safety car period. They themselves failed to take advanage of the race coming to them, how many times has that happened with Dyson, Creation, Zytek, Pescarolo etc over the years?

How many wins would have been picked up if they'd sacrificed a little pace in order to make their cars bulletproof?

We need the factories to generate good racing that lasts more than an hour or two, it's upto the privateers to stay in the game and position themselves to take advantage of potential race winning positions.

Diesel vs petrol equivalency is irrelevant up until that point.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I can happily look back for example to 1992 after Balestre and Ecclestone had done their best to destroy sports cars and an awful lot of people didn't bother going to watch such a small field - but I'll remember those stupendous Peugeots and Toyotas for the rest of my days. I'd have gone just to watch them....

Laughing stock of the general public - no, as has been said before, the

The 1993 race has just been on Motors TV. By god I had forgotten just how good the TS10 and the 905 were.

Very much a case of what might have been. If only Jag and Merc had been tempted to stay with the Grp C class it would have been amazing.

Did Porsche ever contemplate building a 3.5 atmo car I wonder?

[smh]

The best solution to this would be another class for them to be in. There are too many variants in each class, so make say LMPD1 & 2 for them.To win overall in any car is an achievement but a class win is equally as good.
Its great to have proper manufacturer entries but most have tyre budgets that most privateers have to run their car on. The remarks about making the car reliable are a bit unfair as I'd like to see the overall cost of the Pug including development against say the Zytek's. Plus in most cases the works teams have professional (paid) drivers where most of the others have "gentlemen" drivers in them. On the day its about luck, you either have it or not and even the best cars can fail, how many R8's have gone out at LeMans? a couple that I can think of, so even the best fall. Give Zytek some respect as theyre having a decent go at LMP1, even though theres tough opposition.