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Old 7 May 2007, 18:28 (Ref:1908459)   #51
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Originally Posted by JAG
Zytek, Creation Pescarolo can have all the pace in the world, but they can't run reliably, so have zero chance of wnning.
Don't forget that Pescarolo Sport made two 2nd, one 4th, one 5th, one 8th, one 10th and one 13th position in the last 6 years at Le Mans...

Mind you that those Pescarolo's made it up to 2nd position two consecutive years while there was more than 1 Audi in the field.

I totally agree with you about the other mentioned teams, but I think Pescarolo is a different story.

Eventually I expect things to solve automatically. It indeed has happened before and sure it has looked a lot more worrying than now.
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Old 7 May 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1908462)   #52
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Originally Posted by Nordic
The 1993 race has just been on Motors TV. By god I had forgotten just how good the TS10 and the 905 were.
Saw it as well. You are sooooo right. What an amazing sound !
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Old 8 May 2007, 09:47 (Ref:1908851)   #53
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We need the factories to generate good racing that lasts more than an hour or two, it's upto the privateers to stay in the game and position themselves to take advantage of potential race winning positions.

Hmmm. Yes, maybe. But for me, I'd rather see the factories do what Porsche did in the 80s - sell cars to privateers and let the privateers compete on a (reasonably) level playing field.

Pie in the sky though these days, I suppose.

As for Pesca - yes, he's had some good results but not the one that matters - and he knows he's had cars fast enough. Sadly, I don't think he will ever pull off a win all the time that a big factory is involved. Shame, because even though I'm a Brit, I'd love to see him win it.
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Old 8 May 2007, 10:34 (Ref:1908883)   #54
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Hmmm. Yes, maybe. But for me, I'd rather see the factories do what Porsche did in the 80s - sell cars to privateers and let the privateers compete on a (reasonably) level playing field.

Pie in the sky though these days, I suppose.
I agree, and to their credit Porsche are suppling the new LMP car, but not to Europe it seems.

As for Audi selling an R10, I doubt it, but again a few R8's did get out, Goh, Arena, Champion, and Audi Uk to be run with the factory blessing.

Its an interesting point the apart from Porsche, not many others have ever sold Prototype customer cars apart from the racing car makers like Lola.

I can't recall any more than 1 TWR jag ever run outside TWR, Sauber/Merc sold a car a year to Del Bello, Lancia let a few go to Jolly Club and Action Team.
Toyota and Nissan needed to supply teams to race in Japan Grp C, but not anything like the number of 956's 962's and none of the more recent cars.

The nearest I can think of is the Ferrari 333P which was available and very good too.

So maybe we should view audi in that context and be happy that at least a few did escape.

I hope that the Swiss Spirit Audi deal may be a sign of things to come, and once the factory R10 project finishes, then they do contine to supply engines to teams, either R8 petrol or the oil burner.
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Old 8 May 2007, 13:48 (Ref:1909020)   #55
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.....Its an interesting point the apart from Porsche, not many others have ever sold Prototype customer cars apart from the racing car makers like Lola......
can we count DAMS Cadillac as customers?
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Old 8 May 2007, 14:33 (Ref:1909048)   #56
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I suspect a manufacturer wishing to do a works effort at LeMans will be talking to the ACO about it long before we hear anything. The snippetts we hear, such as the comments from Porsche, are nothing more than soundbites.

I hope that this is why the ACO has said it will look at the rules again before 2008 - ie that there are some petrol manufacturers waiting in the wings.

The ACO will want nothing more than Peugoet winning LeMans in 2007, whether they dominate or not, as it will at least create some headline publicity in France. I hate to say it but the last time the race acheived anything close to popular press publicity in the world, even France was with the flying Mercedes.

These days le mans will attract a big crowd whoever is racing it is much more an 'event' and a party now to most people and will remain so, the race is the catalyst, but it is a side show to many, much in the same way Monaco, Henley regatta, the Derby etc. etc.
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Old 8 May 2007, 14:38 (Ref:1909051)   #57
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi
Hmmm. Yes, maybe. But for me, I'd rather see the factories do what Porsche did in the 80s - sell cars to privateers and let the privateers compete on a (reasonably) level playing field.

Pie in the sky though these days, I suppose.

As for Pesca - yes, he's had some good results but not the one that matters - and he knows he's had cars fast enough. Sadly, I don't think he will ever pull off a win all the time that a big factory is involved. Shame, because even though I'm a Brit, I'd love to see him win it.
Rumours on Motors TV from Mark Cole, after a discussion with Lola, was that the Lola Audi could be a toe in the water customer program for Audi, but no one would comment.

All you need is one major manufactuer to sell cars/engines, that could be Audi, Porsche, Acura.

The likes of Lola, Creation and Zytek also seem to be stepping up their game each year.
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Old 8 May 2007, 16:19 (Ref:1909138)   #58
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The question is will this discredit the ACO.

Does it matter?
Daytona has been discredited and keeps on trucking, unless opinions matter more in Europe, LeMans will do the same.

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Old 8 May 2007, 19:47 (Ref:1909306)   #59
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Quite right Bob - credibility is intangible and is in the eye of the beholder. The hardcore sportscar fans will debate until the cows come home, but in the end, mass media will never be particularly drawn to Le Mans, and never really has...
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Old 8 May 2007, 20:28 (Ref:1909346)   #60
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canam should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanam should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Circa US$350m is being spent over three years in programmes by two manufacturers to: 1) keep on winning Le Mans and/or 2) win Le Mans. Now by the standards of F1, this is chump change but a LM victory has to be viewed to have some sense of credibility. These manufacturers are using their performance to actually sell cars not as a marketing exercise to 'show off' their engineering capabilities. If LM is viewed to the rigged, then the programs may not meet their marketing objectives and, eventually, will get consigned to the trash can...(as manfufacturers hae done so many times in the past). Under such circumstances, these same manufacturers will point to finger at the ACO for allowing it to happen. After all, they were just building cars to meet the regs!! Credibility is a judgement call made by the marketing departments and they will happily turn off the tap as quickly as hey turned it on.

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Old 8 May 2007, 20:53 (Ref:1909383)   #61
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jhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I don't know if I buy into this premise. If Peugeot wins Le Mans this year and then promptly markets the victory, the mainstream media will not chastise them for taking advantage of a perceived rule loophole. And if diesel technology is a loophole will it really matter? How many manufacturers have taken advantage of rule loopholes over the years? Yet Le Mans continues on.
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Old 8 May 2007, 21:28 (Ref:1909420)   #62
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I don't know if I buy into this premise. If Peugeot wins Le Mans this year and then promptly markets the victory, the mainstream media will not chastise them for taking advantage of a perceived rule loophole. And if diesel technology is a loophole will it really matter? How many manufacturers have taken advantage of rule loopholes over the years? Yet Le Mans continues on.
This is not a loophole. It is a calculated dispensation by the ACO designed to generate a known outcome--in terms of the fact that an oiler will win it. Le Mans 2007, in fact, is not a race at all...at least between the two technologies.
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Old 8 May 2007, 21:35 (Ref:1909427)   #63
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This is not a loophole. It is a calculated dispensation by the ACO designed to generate a known outcome--in terms of the fact that an oiler will win it. Le Mans 2007, in fact, is not a race at all...at least between the two technologies.
That is your hypothesis. Let's be clear on that.
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Old 8 May 2007, 23:04 (Ref:1909483)   #64
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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This is not a loophole. It is a calculated dispensation by the ACO designed to generate a known outcome--in terms of the fact that an oiler will win it. Le Mans 2007, in fact, is not a race at all...at least between the two technologies.
If a two year period of grace is required for diesels, in order to attract two major, commited manufactuers, before readjusting the performance balance, so be it.

Porsche sat back while prototype racing went down the plug hole, so I ain't gonna shed a tear if they stay away from P1 for another year, makes no difference than the past decade.

When Porsche tire of beating up on privateers in P2, Peugeot and Audi will be waiting for them in the bigs boys' class.
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Old 8 May 2007, 23:53 (Ref:1909502)   #65
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I'll have to let Robert Clarke know, that Acura are privateers.
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Old 9 May 2007, 00:01 (Ref:1909504)   #66
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Porsche were in P2 well before Acura arrived on the scene, they're also heading to P1 long term, and using (modified) off the shelf chassis.

Porsche are spending a P1 budget on a full works P2 effort, in the process screwing up (IMO), the whole ALMS class structure.

Until Porsche have a car that can compete for overall wins at Le Mans they aren't a factor for the ACO, and their need to put on a credible 24hr race each year, which invariably means manufactuers vs manufactuers.

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Old 9 May 2007, 00:08 (Ref:1909509)   #67
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I'll have to let Robert Clarke know, that Acura are privateers.
?????http://www.imsaracing.net/2007/event...g/alms/ppf.pdf

What is this then?

L.P.
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Old 9 May 2007, 00:20 (Ref:1909514)   #68
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Really, I think we are all smart enough to understand reality.
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Old 9 May 2007, 00:22 (Ref:1909516)   #69
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Originally Posted by JAG
Porsche were in P2 well before Acura arrived on the scene, they're also heading to P1 long term, and using (modified) off the shelf chassis.

Porsche are spending a P1 budget on a full works P2 effort, in the process screwing up (IMO), the whole ALMS class structure.
..and hasn't the racing been good? Don't colour outside of the lines.

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Until Porsche have a car that can compete for overall wins at Le Mans they aren't a factor for the ACO, and their need to put on a credible 24hr race each year, which invariably means manufactuers vs manufactuers.
Yet, enough of a factor to change the rules. I'm not really certain what you are talking about with the last portion of your statement.
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Old 9 May 2007, 03:13 (Ref:1909550)   #70
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[QUOTE=JAG]Porsche were in P2 well before Acura arrived on the scene, they're also heading to P1 long term, and using (modified) off the shelf chassis.

Porsche are spending a P1 budget on a full works P2 effort, in the process screwing up (IMO), the whole ALMS class structure.QUOTE]

It is generally something those with the ability to do so, DO, when they are not happy with the mode of operation.
Some what like throwing a tool into the machinery, but it does not shut machinery down, just the resulting product must be accepted by those who hate the modified product.

Go Porsche!!!
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Old 9 May 2007, 03:26 (Ref:1909551)   #71
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Porsche spent their off time retooling. They've put out two new generations of the 911 (996 & 997), plus two entirely new models (Cayanne & Cayman), during their absense from the top couple of classes (and they're working on the Panamera). Porsche have been very active in GT2 the whole time despite all that.

Also, I don't buy that Porsche is merely complaining and politicking. Porsche didn't back down in the face of the 1968 regs, they built TWO new prototypes (908 AND 917). Porsche didn't back down from Group 4, 5, and 6; they built the 934 (GT), 935 (silhouette), and 936 (prototype). They remade the 936 just for 1981, and turned around the following year with the brand new Group C regs and turned out the 956, which evelved in 1985 to the 962. In the early 90s, they remade the 962, and one of Dauer's cars won in 1994. Then they came out with the WSC95 for the new WSC/GT! rules. Finally, in 1998, they came in with the 911-GT1-98. Porsche didn't hold back in those cases, so it seems EXTREMELY out of character for them to start now.
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Old 9 May 2007, 03:43 (Ref:1909553)   #72
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As to Porsche in P2, now the class actually has some attention, and isn't just a "last man standing" class, and Porsche is providing as many customer cars as we ever saw from Lola, Pilbeam, or Courage, in the ALMS, in the old P675/P2. So really, at this point, Porsche has done a fair amount of good for the class.

JAG, if you really think Porsche is ruining P2 and are wusses for not entering P1 right now, go tell it to the face of the CEO of PMNA.
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Old 9 May 2007, 06:21 (Ref:1909588)   #73
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I dont think Porsche is ruining P2 - far from it. I suspect they have talked to the ACO and the rules will be adjusted for 2008/9. Porsche and Acura will both move to P1 leaving a legacy of a fantastic group of privateer cars available to P2 entrants.

I think the ACO has been caught on the hop by the shear pace of the Peugeot - in ALMS Audi is struggling to cope with the adjusted P2's and last year struggled to match the pace of the Zytek and Creation.

In LMS Peugeot appear to have moved the goalposts again in terms of raw pace and have wiped the floor of some cars the cars that Audi has struggled to out pace.
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Old 9 May 2007, 07:54 (Ref:1909638)   #74
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I think it is fair to say that Porsche is doing a lot of good in the P2 class making a top level chassis available!! I would assume that they will then carry this through into the top P1 class ?

I would think that the ACO IS worried about the pace of the diesels and an adjustment will take place at the end of the year to limit power, the problem they have is how to limit the torque? (Capacity decrease?)

Does the fact that they got the rules slightly wrong discredit them in any way? Frankly NO - having Pug or Audi winning probably does more for the sport in the mainstream than it would if a Pescarolo, Zytek etc... won!!! After all who are they in the greater scheme of things ? And before anyone complains i happen to support Zytek.......

At the end of the day the amount of performance that audi and Pug have managed to extract from the rules is somewhat of a surprise - they fact that they are winning is not. A works team should ALWAYS beat the privateers, if they don't then they frankly are not doing a very good job IMO!!!
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Old 9 May 2007, 13:52 (Ref:1909889)   #75
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Audi and Peugeot are the ones who have stepped upto the challenge of Le Mans, they're the manufactuers that will ensure 2007 is a classic, they're the manufactuers the ACO should be concerned with keeping happy at this time, not Porsche, who are staying over in the US and haven't run a P1 for the past 8-9 years.

Diesel regs will be adjusted for 2008, maybe even mid season, why fret about Peugeot and Audi dominating in the meantime, an Audi petrol car was completely dominant for the past 6 years, now they have credible manufactuer opposition, and relatively minor reg changes should make all fuel types competitive.

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