What is the Real incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2?

[carbsmith]

There will be two generations of chassis again in three(?) years though, that's just an incidental result of changing the rules.

I really would not underestimate Dallara in the long term. ORECA and Onroak are getting a lot of return customers in Europe because in contrast to Dallara that hasn't shown much yet they're established options and the ORECA can be upgraded, and Multimatic-Riley has obvious appeal to North American teams that have previous experience with them. But Dallara is a much bigger company that has made more than one series spec by default. Their previous sports car designs were arguably the best customer cars of their time as well, there's no reason to count out the guys that made the 333SP and SP1.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

But Dallara is a much bigger company that has made more than one series spec by default.

That is a good point. F3 comes to mind.

[Maelochs]

I believe Dallara made some of the early Audi Le Mans winners' monocoques, too. I don't count them out ... but i'd bet most Euro teams opt for Oak or Oreca for the first round.

However, GM has chosen Dallara ... so I'd say the company will be well-represented in WSC.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I believe Dallara made some of the early Audi Le Mans winners' monocoques, too. I don't count them out ... but i'd bet most Euro teams opt for Oak or Oreca for the first round.

Dallara built the Audi R8, Audi R10, Audi R15 and the 2011-2013 R18s. After that they were produced by YCOM.

[MagVanisher]

By the way, why the ACO need two French manufacturers where they could just merge into a super chassis manufacturer?

On the other hand, since the four chassis manufacturers are focused on European and North American sales, it's sad that they're not pushing their 2017-spec LMP2 cars in the Asian market.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

By the way, why the ACO need two French manufacturers where they could just merge into a super chassis manufacturer?

It's not that simple though. Oak and ORECA are 2 separate companies. You can't just tell them to merge.

Why do we need Google and Apple? Why not just merge them into a super phone manufacturer?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's not that simple though. Oak and ORECA are 2 separate companies. You can't just tell them to merge.

Why do we need Google and Apple? Why not just merge them into a super phone manufacturer?

To me that's not a comparable analogy. There's lots of other chassis constructors, but the French rule makers chose two French constructors... of 4. So half of your choices are French. Why not one from another country? If Oreca and Oak joined forces, they could split the profit in whatever deal they choose and there would be room for someone else to make money. I think to some it seems a little biased.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think to some it seems a little biased.

Seems a little biased? It is biased - period.

Everyone expected when they said there would be four chassis makers that Oreca and Onroak would be two of the four. We all knew it then. The only question we all had was who would get screwed. It turned out just about everyone did - Gibson lost chassis rights so they got the engines, Riley and Multimatic were forced to align together and everyone else got screwed. Strakka and SMP who spent huge sums to make the Dome S103 and the BR01 work suddenly got told to either bankrupt themselves racing the factories or dump multi-million-dollar investments into the garbage.

And they didn't do better with LMP3, either - two of the five makers are French there, too, and so is the engine supply maker. And to the surprise of nobody who looks at this with any sort of cynicism, as soon as Ligier's P3 started showing up Ginetta started to have problems with supply, and figuring out the obvious, they effectively pulled out of the class, fitting a Chevrolet V8 in the back with the objective of using it to replace the FLM09 in IMSA, but nobody bought it there.

They've officially gone back to their old habits, the ACO. Support the French, screw impartiality.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

To me that's not a comparable analogy. There's lots of other chassis constructors, but the French rule makers chose two French constructors... of 4. So half of your choices are French. Why not one from another country? If Oreca and Oak joined forces, they could split the profit in whatever deal they choose and there would be room for someone else to make money. I think to some it seems a little biased.

I agree that it's very convenient that the ACO chose 2 French manufacturers. But the ACO has no authority at all to suggest 2 companies work together. That's way way beyond sporting issues and well into business, and you can't just do that. Imagine if the ACO limited the LMP1 teams to 3, and suddenly Honda want to build an LMP1 car. Will the ACO say "Honda and Toyota. You need to work together and only enter one team". Of course.

The comparison isn't mean to show what the ACO did was fair, just illustrate why you can't say "Hey ORECA and Oak, you two have to work together".

However, if we're going to be completely honest - what are the two best LMP2 chassis to the current regs? ORECA and Oak. So why shouldn't they get chosen? The problem comes when you look at third downwards - Gibson and BR01 didn't get a look in, whilst Dallara and Riley, who don't even make currently legal cars did. If you want to base it on recent performances, then the two French entries are the only well selected ones.

This is why the 4 chassis choice is a mess. Not really because it limits what the teams can do, but rather the selection process isn't the clearest and based on opinions.

[Maelochs]

Of course, regardless of company of origin, Onroak and Oreca were already building 95 percent of the cars on the grid. How could either be excluded?

I don't see where including the two corporations which provided 95 percent of the cars on the grid is "biased." I also don't see how SMP or Straka could be considered on the same level---after all the Dome never got built, and SMP only built enough chassis for its own use.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Of course, regardless of company of origin, Onroak and Oreca were already building 95 percent of the cars on the grid. How could either be excluded?

I don't see where including the two corporations which provided 95 percent of the cars on the grid is "biased." I also don't see how SMP or Straka could be considered on the same level---after all the Dome never got built, and SMP only built enough chassis for its own use.

That's true, SMP and Dome never really provided enough cars. But then when was the last Riley or Dallara LMP2? If we argue that Dome and SMP shouldn't be getting a slot because of not enough cars, then Riley and Dallara REALLY shouldn't be in. Gibson has the best argument if you take that route.

In reality, the selection process will have been more involved than just who was built what recently. No doubt that Riley being American, and therefore useful to IMSA, and Dallara having a base of operations in the US for IndyCar helped them in the selection process.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That's true, SMP and Dome never really provided enough cars. But then when was the last Riley or Dallara LMP2? If we argue that Dome and SMP shouldn't be getting a slot because of not enough cars, then Riley and Dallara REALLY shouldn't be in. Gibson has the best argument if you take that route.

I am not saying that the selection process was necessarily fair ... or unfair. I understand that FIA wanted a variety of manufacturers from a variety of areas ... but it pretty much Had to pick the two biggest chassis constructors in the sport.

Riley ... and Multimatic, which preserves the Lola line ... were about the only North American companies which wanted to get involved ... I'd say only to stop even more impassioned cries about Eurocentric prejudice, was Riley/Multimatic included.

Dallara is a really big chassis constructor, someone the series could count on.

Gibson, as Zytec, had a very few cars in the series for a while ... but it chose engine-building as a better business opportunity. It was never on a scale to match Oreca or Oak (really, only Dallara is.)

Oreca, Oak, and Dallara were pretty much the best-positioned ... any of them could easily supply half the field with existing construction capacity, should that be needed. Riley got gifted a spot so that North America wasn't left out ... and which other constructors had the capacity to do a dozen chassis and all the spares in a hurry without a major expansion and a lot of outside funding?

[carbsmith]

Riley-Multimatic and Dallara are both really strong bids honestly. Multimatic does have a current LMP2 chassis, both companies have built very good and very popular prototype sports cars (remember a Multimatic Lola was the first car to win LMP675 at Le Mans), and with the alliance they have good presence in both North America and Europe (Chip Ganassi Racing Team UK is actually a Lola factory team, if you aren't aware). Phrase it as "Lola-Riley" and ask yourself if you'd expect it not to get in.

Dallara is Dallara, they can promise pretty much anything other constructors can't.

[MaskedRacer]

2016 will go down as the year that I lost interest in the WEC. LMP1 privateer is dead. LMP2 is becoming a quasi spec series And even the big LMP1 class cars are becoming ugly. The Audi is very ugly. The Porsche isn't anything special and I hate that Toyota went from blue to red.

Even Le Mans is less interesting from a prototype standpoint. I only cared about GTE this year.

[Lasse]

Are the new LMP2 cars going to be BOP'ed?

[Akrapovic]

No. Which raises an issue. Cars are homologated for a while. One or two chassis may be significantly better. With a 4 chassis limit and homologated cars, we could end up with one or two chassis dominating.

This may not be an issue in DPi format. IMSA will probably BOP them.

[Maelochs]

I am sure updates will be allowed ... FIA realizes that likely a couple chassis will be markedly better and it is in the various series' best interests to have parity.

Possibly in a couple seasons a couple will simple stop trying because no one wants their cars ... it happens.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Oreca, Oak, and Dallara were pretty much the best-positioned ... any of them could easily supply half the field with existing construction capacity, should that be needed. Riley got gifted a spot so that North America wasn't left out ...

Speaking of leaving out, I think ACO forgot to take account on the Asian market. Then again, who cares about the AsLMS anyway when there's GT Asia, Super GT, etc.

While Dome could have benefited for the Asian market, it appears that they've scaled down their business recently.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Speaking of leaving out, I think ACO forgot to take account on the Asian market. Then again, who cares about the AsLMS anyway when there's GT Asia, Super GT, etc.

While Dome could have benefited for the Asian market, it appears that they've scaled down their business recently.

There are 33 cars entered for the Zhuhai round so someone cares. Admittedly there are only 4 LMP2s but that could increase in future as the series accepts older spec cars thrown out of ELMS/WEC.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/1...ntry-list.html

[MagVanisher]

That's great, but when will the grandfather clause apply for Asian Le Mans Series?

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

That's great, but when will the grandfather clause apply for Asian Le Mans Series?

Note that new generation LMP2s are not allowed in Asian LMS in 2017 and 2018 - see this slide from an ACO powerpoint


"Anciennes" means current (grandfathered) LMP2s

Mariantic

[MagVanisher]

Okay, thanks for the info. Of course, I'm worried that grand-fathered LMP2 cars won't get past 2018 should AsLMS survives.

[Coach Ep]

Letting the new cars into the AsLMS for their '18/'19 season would be the better thing - as long as the old ones are given a fair chance of competing for the win.

In the current planned schedule, development of the top proto class is purposely slowed down with teams making the investment for a new car in 2018 no where to run in Asia but the couple of WEC rounds. That would hardly justify an early investment for the new car. With constructors focusing on their new cars, one has to wonder how much support for the old cars can be expected in 2 years time?

It would be wise to adjust this on short notice so teams know well in advance where things are heading.

[Maelochs]

I think the deal with AsLMS is that it is almost a forgotten region where motorsports do not have a history, and treating it like Europe or North America would make no sense.

I am sure the AsLMS will not be allowed to use older cars ... when it can put enough new cars on the grid. In the meantime, what a great place too unload all the older LMP2s and spares? Makes good economic sense, helps expand the series ... everybody wins.

I am not sure Dome wanted to become an LMP2 manufacturer, and seeing how long it has taken to porduce the (still waiting ... ) Straka-Dome i wouldn't offer them a spot.

I think North America got a spot because North America is a serious player in the autosports and automotive world (lots of cars sold here all across the economic spectrum) and FIA wants to keep some sort of communication open with the continent---a war between IMSA and FIA wouldn't help either or the sport in general.

Asia simply doesn't have the auto-racing economic clout, and while a lot of luxury cars get sold mass auto ownership isn't a huge thing--- and though I guess a lot of Asia-specific small cars are sold there by North American factories, those are North American factories. China has its mini-cars and knock-offs, but no global reach and not much hope of such for a while.

[TF110]

There's 33 cars so far for the AsLMS, that's near as much as the wec.