What will Toyota do???

[Dov]

Company's trucks performing well, but IRL cars have slipped
11:56 PM CDT on Thursday, October 14, 2004

By TERRY BLOUNT / The Dallas Morning News

Assessing the 2004 season for Toyota is a little like examining the proverbial glass of water. It's either half full or half empty, depending on whom you ask and how they see it.

If you're talking about Toyota's first year in the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series, things look pretty good with two victories in the last three races.

If you're looking at the IRL season, things aren't so hot. After a season-opening win at Miami by Toyota driver Sam Hornish Jr., Honda has won 14 consecutive races.

"It has been frustrating," said Helio Castroneves, who drives the No. 3 Dallara/Toyota for Marlboro Team Penske. "Things happened that were outside of our control, but we didn't let it bring us down."

Jim Aust, president of Toyota Racing Development, admits that Toyota's entry into the truck series might have caused some unforeseen problems for the IRL program.

"At the same time we were in the final stages of preparing our truck engine, changes came in the IRL," Aust said. "We had to focus on both efforts at the same time, and that proved to be difficult."

The change was mandated to begin at the Indy 500. Toyota was trying to prepare for its first truck race at Daytona in February while also finalizing the development of the smaller IRL motor.

After dominating its first IRL season in 2003, Toyota officials had to play catch-up to Honda. And Chevrolet hasn't won a race. Its only top?three finish came at TMS in June when Alex Barron was third.

A similar lack of parity in NASCAR probably would bring mid-season changes to try to even out the competition. But the IRL elected not to interfere.

"It's just the nature of competition," said IRL vice president Ken Ungar. "We believe it's a cyclical thing and competition will sort itself out."

Aust said he believes Toyota has gained ground. Castroneves can tie Billy Boat's IRL record of four consecutive poles if he leads qualifying today for the Chevy 500 Sunday at TMS.

But Toyota's lack of success in the IRL this year, and its growing success in the truck series, has fueled increased speculation that Toyota will enter Nextel Cup soon. Toyota's contract with the IRL runs through the 2006 season. The investment it would take to run in Cup, at least $100 million, could force Toyota to make an either/or decision on Cup and the IRL by 2007.

Aust is thrilled with the showing the Toyota Tundra teams have made over the last two months. A big boost came from the recent entry of the Germain/Arnold Racing and veteran driver Todd Bodine.

The team has three top-fives in four starts, including a victory for Bodine two weeks ago at California Speedway. Travis Kvapil, the defending NCTS champion, has two wins for Toyota in the last eight races.

"It's been great first year," Aust said. "We have a lot to be excited about. It has been a wonderful way for us to showcase the Americanization of Toyota."

That theme was Toyota's top priority in entering the truck series. Toyota is opening a massive assembly plant in San Antonio in 2006 that will produce 150,000 Tundra trucks a year and employ thousands of workers.

Toyota began selling cars in the United States in 1957. Fifty years later, that "Americanization" process could mean a spot in America's most popular racing series. And that might be bad news for the IRL.

[rustyfan]

There's no question that 2005 and 2006 will be two very important years for the teams using Toyota power - if the lack of competiveness and results continue, I would almost go as far as say it's a sure-bet Toyota will drop its IndyCar effort to concentrate on NASCAR.

However, if Toyota is able to stop Honda's domination I'd say it could also mean Toyota decides to keep its IndyCar effort.

As usual in matters such as this, time will tell - 2007 is still a long way off.

[BootsOntheSide]

When indycool or someone posts an article which uses a collection of half-truths, rumours and theories to paint CART in a negative light, dov is usually the first to launch a tirade of personal insults towards them.

Toyota could leave in 2 years time, of course, but they've got plenty they can do to improve their competitiveness.

[Kicking-back]

Toyota are definitely moving in the right direction, competitiveness-wise.

Another pole position, this weekend.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Toyota are definitely moving in the right direction, competitiveness-wise.

Another pole position, this weekend.

Pole positions don't really count in the end though - victories and championships, however, do.

The poles certainly indicate the speed is there of course - just a matter of the Toyota drivers being able to close the deal every now and then as well

[gttouring]

toyota has run multiple disciplines in the past- IMSA, Score,Corr, LeMans, Atlantics one make series, JGTC, TC2000, and CART. and now with F1 and NASCAR- i don't see IRL suffereing, it would be a setup to an excuse not to keep investing and hence saving face, the Indy program wouldn't dissappear as long as honda sticks around- and 3 litre V8's in Indy are very do-able for the Corporation which has enough CASH in reserve to buy GM out right and have enough to buy Ford- and this you will find is common toyota corporate knowledge- so any desicion will be based on either leveraging rules to help them selves out, or to simply not lose and come back when the cliamte is better.
the F1 debacle is amazing as one would imagine they'd do much much better, even if it is the early years- it took bar honda 5 years to get to where they are? well Toyota you'd expect better as it is one outfit chassia dn engine- and what resources!
of course, honda and Toyota like to duke it out- so either Honda and Toyota leave and everyone ends up in NASCAR or it is a seasonal thing- or better simply a threatening suggestion to allow competition engineering to equalize-
of course it could be the chassis' aero in traffic- the Gforce seems to do much better
is toyota in any Gforces?

[GP Racer]

Gee Dov, I didn't know that you were a concerned IRL fan!

Big deal, manufacturers come and go, we'll survive, just like if Ford leaves your series, you'll sur.... Oh wait, your series won't... Hmmmm, so sorry Dov...

Your lucky that we don't wander over to your forum, and post bad news threads about your series. The new server would be overloaded and jammed up in a minute.

[Down F0rce]

C'mon guys, lets play nice Surley the Series A Vs Series B threads got boring ages ago?

[GP Racer]

No worries DF, me and Dov go back aways, and we've had some really good knock down, drag out arguments before. Besides, he won't have the guts to come back and answer anyone here, he's strictly hit-and-run on this forum!

I forgive him for coming over and posting some flame bait.

[Dov]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Gee Dov, I didn't know that you were a concerned IRL fan!

Your right, GP, i'm not concerned about the IRL, but I am concerned about OW racing in North America and eventually this split has to come to a head! There's major problems in both series and I know that some of you prefer two series because there's more race's to watch, however, the quality of the racing would be so much better if there was only one strong OW series around.

Originally posted by GP Racer
Your lucky that we don't wander over to your forum, and post bad news threads about your series.

Many of you already do! hrug:

P.S. Don't worry, DF, like GP said, we go way back and everything is cool. Btw, that was for, GP!

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Dov
the quality of the racing would be so much better if there was only one strong OW series around.Many of you already do!

Amen to that

[GP Racer]

Dov, I only see one real problem with the IRL right now, and thats TV viewership.

Everything else is just percieved problems. The IRL is in good shape otherwise IMO. We have great sponsorship, decent crowds at most, but not all venues, great manufacturer support for both chassis and engines, we have the best teams, and some really great drivers, road racing is coming, and the on-track product is one of the best in racing right now.

It's funny, that since the IRL has gotten better over the years, the criticism has gotten worse to. I think open wheel purists are just worried that this series is the series of the future, and they cannot come to grips with that fact. Just my opinion.

[Kicking-back]

I'd call myself a "purist" when it comes to racing - and I rate the IRL very highly this season.

[Dov]

Originally posted by gttouring
toyota has run multiple disciplines in the past- IMSA, Score,Corr, LeMans, Atlantics one make series, JGTC, TC2000, and CART. and now with F1 and NASCAR- i don't see IRL suffereing,

The amount of money that Toyota is spending in F1 and NASCAR is unbelievable and the more they want to succeed in both series, the more their going to invest, therefore it wouldn't surprise me if they pull out of the IRL in the year or two. We shall see.

[Dov]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Dov, I only see one real problem with the IRL right now, and thats TV viewership. Everything else is just percieved problems. The IRL is in good shape otherwise IMO. We have great sponsorship, decent crowds at most, but not all venues, great manufacturer support for both chassis and engines, we have the best teams, and some really great drivers, road racing is coming, and the on-track product is one of the best in racing right now.

GP, there's more problems then that....the IRL has some good sponsorship, but more and more the big company's are throwing their money at NASCAR. The attendance at the majority of the IRL venues is horrible, the Indy 500 has become somewhat of a shadow of it's former self and the manufacturer's (engines) aren't very stable, imo. The IRL has some great drivers, but imagine one OW series that included (with the IRL drivers) Paul Tracy, Sebastien Bourdais, Bruno Junqueira, Justin Wilson, AJ Allmendinger, Michel Jourdain Jr., RH-R, Dominguez and Alex Tagliani?!?! Now that would be one great racing series!!!

[BootsOntheSide]

The worst case, even if everythign Dov is sugegsting happened, would mean 2007 IRL having spec engines and 2 chassis suppliers, half as much status/talent on the grid, and a small but loyal fanbase. In other words, the same kind of position CART is in now. If either series is going to die out, or lose its identity in a merger, I don't feel it will be the IRL.

[Kicking-back]

As for identity, Boots, calling the "single" series, the IndyCar Series, would be fine - that's what it was pre-split.

[Dov]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
and a small but loyal fanbase. In other words, the same kind of position CART is in now.

Boots, Champ Car does not have a small fanbase like the IRL, are attendance is rather strong at MOST venues. Btw, how do you know for sure that the IRL's small fanbase is loyal? I'll bet you that the majority of 'race fans' that attend IRL races in Kentucky, Fontana, Texas, etc. come out just to see what it's like and most of them wouldn't return the following year. Other fans get free tickets to watch the race and many get a deal were if they buy a ticket to a NASCAR race, they also get a second ticket for free to a IRL race. Yes, the CCWS is having some attendance problems at some venues and all of them seem to be in the US. Road America, Laguna Seca, and Portland have been struggling the past couple of years and imo, the IRL wouldn't make any difference if they raced at these tracks.

Because of the 'split' we have lost at least one generation of OW racing fans in North America to NASCAR and other forms of racing. When I grew up it used to be fun for the entire family to jump in the van or trailer and drive 1 & a 1/2 to 3 hours to Mosport or another road course and spend the entire weekend at the track watching the race cars practice, qualify, race and we would spend time playing with friends we had met from previous years and not to forget about those great BBQ's during the evening. Nowadays it looks to me like race fans don't have the time or their not willing to make the time and effort to travel that far with their family to see a race and that's a damn shame! Maybe 'the split' can be blamed partially for this, however, I can't imagine that's the entire reason. Maybe the times have changed and street racing in city's is where the future is for OW racing in the US?! Anyways, that's enough rambling on my part for tonight.

Cheers,
Dov

[Dov]

This is a pro-IRL article so relax and enjoy. From Robin Miller at Speedtv.com:

If you kept score in auto racing like, say boxing, this year's Indy Racing League season would have been stopped. Because Honda beat Toyota into a bloody pulp -- winning 14 of 16 races, the Indianapolis 500, leading 75 percent of the laps and sweeping the top four spots in the point standings led by champ Tony Kanaan.

Toyota is a proud bunch whose main purpose in life is to conquer its hated rival Honda -- be it on the race track or selling cars. To be humiliated in this American arena is unacceptable to either side but the rumor at mid-season was that Japan wanted to pull the plug on Indy cars. The logic being that Toyota had won the CART title in 2001, the IRL crown in 2003 and last year's Indy 500 and now it was focused on NASCAR, where it debuted in the truck series this year.

But, according to Toyota Racing Development president Jim Aust, his group is going to come out swinging in 2005. "It's been a pretty humbling season and we are re-focusing for next year and we'll make a greater effort to close the gap," said Aust, who watched Helio Castroneves end Honda's 14-race winning streak here Sunday. "We learned in CART that in order to succeed you've got to have strength in teams and in numbers. "Honda has eight cars that are in the hunt every weekend and, all things being equal, we have seven cars that don't measure up." So Aust & Company are going to spend the money to upgrade. They want to add a third car to Target/Ganassi, get Morris Nunn an injection of talent and possibly add another team to the mix

[GP Racer]

Unfortunately, the only way I see one series ever happenning now, is for one series to go away.

The climate between the owners of these two series is now so polluted, that I cannot see them working out a deal together. Right now if there is any momentum at all in open wheel racing it's with the IRL. OWRS is struggling and will continue to for quite some time. One of its owners PG, thinks that he can snooker the fans with his constant BS, backed up by nothing but hot air. I think the fans are on to his game, and they will continue to lose support because of him.

Personally I wish this OWRS thing never happened. To me its just delaying the whole one series issue. In 05, the IRL will have pretty much everything a race fan could want, good drivers, and the best teams, on a mixture of venues. From a purely business decision, without the emotion, they are better poised to take open wheel into the future right now.

OWRS is not CART, of which I was a fan, it's just a poor imitation. OWRS couldn't make a pimple on CART's buttocks. Gentilozzi, the blovinator, is not a knight in shining armor, he's a huckster, a used car salesman. He and his series needs to go away, for one series to have any hope of happening, so we can move on together.

[Kicking-back]

The best way forward would be for both sides to abandon their pride - and for the best teams and drivers from what is currently OWRS to join with the best from the IRL in a new "IndyCar" series.

[indycool]

I guess this started out as a Toyota thread and wound up being a "feud" thread, so......

On the Toyota side, here's the WHOLE Robin Miller article Dov mentioned:

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/13495/

It doesn't address what Toyota's going to do after 2006, but that it's concerning itself right now with competing in 2005. The idea that CART/OWRS "CW jihaders" have promoted since Toyota left CART was that Toyota would leave the IRL. Yet there's not a single Toyota spokesman who has even hinted at it. They've been busy running their program.

As far as fanbase, Dov, this is going on at many forums right now and, IMO, is a non-issue. "Fanbase" is more geographic than anything. An OWRS fan in Miami is probably not going to attend Long Beach. But an IRL fan in Milwaukee MIGHT attend the OWRS race in Milwaukee and vice versa.

The idea that OWRS has a broad fanbase because Mark C. and a couple thousand Internet posters are loud about hating Tony George and the IRL is just plain off-target. Jim Michaelian said once that Long Beach is 65 percent event-goers and 35 percent race fans. The vast majority of the thousands who turn out at Texas, Kentucky or Nashville, or those who turn out at Long Beach or Surfers or Toronto, probably don't know -- or care or want to care -- who Paul Gentilozzi or Tony George is. They merely enjoy the racing events in their markets, at their tracks.

And I agree with GP Racer above -- OWRS is NOT CART. Nowhere close.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'll share this one story...just for the record...

When I attended the IRL race at Kentucky Speedway in August, a number of people sitting around me were NASCAR fans who bought a ticket to see what the IRL was all about....they had never been to an IRL race..

Kentucky Speedway has Busch and NASCAR Truck events, but not an actual NASCAR event, and the Tickets to the IRL race are not tied in as a package at that facility....

Following the race, ALL of the NASCAR people around me were saying how much MORE they liked what they watched on the track that day than they had ever enjoyed any other "Stock Car or related events" they had seen, and were asking me about other locations within a couple hour's drive or so where they could see more IRL races....

They were amazed at how much faster the action was, how agile the cars were, and how every lap had many cars dicing for position...

The palce was packed that day....and there weren't many, if any, "freebees" in the house, because Kentucky Speedway is an independent facility that has to make its bones by selling tickets...they aren't in the ISC family, etc., of race facilities...

[Tim Northcutt]

Concerning Toyota....

They will come back in 2005 and will be strong....

They also will be there in 2006....

2007 is anyone's guess....but that's all speculation anyway...

But it is obvious they are not running back to the other series for at least one year, and probably two years....they have stated their commitment and their desire to get back on top in the IRL....and to beat Honda next year....

[indycool]

Had a similar experience at Nashville a few years ago, Tim....everyone around us was asking questions and they didn't sit down for the first 20 laps.