|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
12 May 2020, 22:29 (Ref:3975803) | #101 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 42,613
|
This thread is about Vettel. Posts removed.
|
||
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
12 May 2020, 23:49 (Ref:3975812) | #102 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
However his titles were won on the whole with a less dominant car than the current Mercedes. |
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
12 May 2020, 23:56 (Ref:3975813) | #103 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
Nailed it. Which is why Sainz or Ricciardo are no-brainers. |
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
13 May 2020, 00:00 (Ref:3975814) | #104 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
Chumps don't win four titles. 2010 he beat a strong McLaren pair, Alonso and Webber at the top of his game. 2011 and 2013 were walks in the park but 2012 the field was strong and he came from a long way back to beat Alonso in incredible form in the final race. "Beating Hamilton in the same team" as a measurement doesn't just fire you ahead of a four-time champion. |
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
13 May 2020, 02:50 (Ref:3975822) | #105 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,244
|
I;m not sure about Sainz but I've never thought of Ricciardo as a safe pair of hands, especially with those late breaking manoeuvres.
I know you didn't suggest it but I don't see why a safe pair of hands is such a bad thing? That's what Mercedes have with Bottas. If Ferrari can get someone to fulfill a similar role to Bottas, then I think that could help turn their fortunes around. |
||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
13 May 2020, 03:21 (Ref:3975828) | #106 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 983
|
I think many people underestimate Vettel's ability to read the race, act accordingly and manage his tyres.
He IS a very good driver. He just has too much issues when the car's handling or any situation doesn't go his way. |
|
|
13 May 2020, 03:23 (Ref:3975829) | #107 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
Jenson Button would be the perfect description of a 'safe pair of hands', I'd guess. Depends on how someone would define it. I don't think Ricciardo is not a safe pair of hands. He doesn't really crash out of many races or lose many points or positions due to his moves. I think the point from the "safe pair of hands" post was; if there's a win or podium to be taken, would someone like Ricciardo or Sainz go for the move, or would they play it safe and bank the safe points? Bottas has shown on a few occasions to be the latter. |
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
13 May 2020, 04:11 (Ref:3975840) | #108 | ||
Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,212
|
He's got all the money in the world,nothing really left to prove in F1.....why not just ride off into the sunset and retire?.
|
||
|
13 May 2020, 06:55 (Ref:3975852) | #109 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
|
I wonder what would happen if the season spills over to next year and drivers' contracts end this calender year and Vettel would be an example of that. It is one good reason for the season not to spill over I guess.
|
|
|
13 May 2020, 07:44 (Ref:3975857) | #110 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,094
|
|||
|
13 May 2020, 07:57 (Ref:3975858) | #111 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,945
|
Stats aren't everything, but someone sent me this on WhatsApp this morning.
I think we often look back at Fernando and remember the highlights and forget the downsides. Where as with Vettel we're now used to talking about the negatives. The stats are very very similar. Both achieved basically the same thing at Ferrari. |
|
|
13 May 2020, 09:20 (Ref:3975871) | #112 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 16,760
|
Quote:
i'm not sure how good he is (never met anyone who's worked with him), but giovinazzi is theoretically a choice too. |
||
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides |
13 May 2020, 09:45 (Ref:3975876) | #113 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,945
|
Quote:
Leclerc is not yet a superstar. Why should you choose your next driver based on working together with someone who might one day be that good? This seems like a silly compromise. Hire someone who gets the job done, regardless of getting on with someone. Mercedes can choose drivers who work well with Lewis because they know Lewis will get the job done. There is no proof that Leclerc can get the job done yet. Aside from that, Ferrari have had solid 1-2 positions with Alonso and still failed to get the job done. When they're in Mercedes position, then they can start playing politics and choosing drivers who suit each other. But when you're not winning, you should choose the driver most likely to deliver you a title - regardless of the relationship they will have with Leclerc. |
||
|
13 May 2020, 10:02 (Ref:3975881) | #114 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,110
|
I might be nit-picking a bit here but could we separate out the "who replaces Vettel" and "what Ferrari do next" posts into the Ferrari thread and keep this specifically for Vettel?
|
|
|
13 May 2020, 10:02 (Ref:3975882) | #115 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 10,280
|
Quote:
LeClerc / Ricciardo LeClerc / Sainz LeClerc / Hulkenburg LeClerc / Hamilton LeClerc / Perez LeClerc / Giovinazzi One of those looks a lot weaker than the others (and in fact you could plug most drivers on the grid into that equation and it'd still be true - Latifi being an obvious exception). |
|||
|
13 May 2020, 10:15 (Ref:3975885) | #116 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,244
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
14 May 2020, 00:14 (Ref:3975994) | #117 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
14 May 2020, 01:42 (Ref:3975997) | #118 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,244
|
I'm not too sure about the 2012 car. Alonso was runner up, just three points behind Vettel and Ferrari finished second in the WCC, 60 points behind RBR. However, with the 2014 car it was a completely different story. Alonso only had two podiums and finished 6th in the WDC and Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC.
|
||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
14 May 2020, 02:15 (Ref:3976001) | #119 | |||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 42,613
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
14 May 2020, 04:37 (Ref:3976007) | #120 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,840
|
Quote:
True. But 2012 was down to Alonso's brilliance more than the car. Shown by 278-122 points vs Massa. That season was very close with lots of teams up there at different points of the season. Alonso was desperately unlucky to not win the title, but the fact he was up there in what was probably the fourth quickest car puts him ahead of Vettel in Ferrari stature for mine. |
|||
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud. |
14 May 2020, 05:54 (Ref:3976013) | #121 | ||
20KPINAL
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
|
Quote:
It wasn't as good as the McLaren and certainly not the Red Bull. The McLaren reliability and also bad luck flattered the red points total somewhat, I think Hamilton alone lost around 100 points due to breakdowns and Maldonado/Hulkenberg/Grosjean harpooning him. 2014 was an undisputed dog. Vettel, you can genuinely argue, had the car to do the job in 2017 and almost certainly in 2018. So it is not at all flattering to compare the Ferrari careers of the two imo. Alonso was not flawless, he made critical errors in 2010 and 2012, but he had far less room to make them, they were smaller and he obviously made far less of them overall. |
||
|
14 May 2020, 07:07 (Ref:3976022) | #122 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
|
Quote:
|
||
|
14 May 2020, 07:23 (Ref:3976030) | #123 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,945
|
Quote:
Alonso is an incredible driver, but there are a couple of times he has bottled it and 2012 was one of them. Vettel was driving a crippled car from the back of the grid. Meanwhile Alonso was midfield, and had to be gifted a position from Massa. He was just not on the ball - he simply wan't good enough on the day it mattered. Not saying he did a worse job than Vettel in Ferrari. Not at all - I actually think Alonso did a better job than Vettel. But Vettel hasn't been as bad as what we remember. |
||
|
14 May 2020, 10:31 (Ref:3976084) | #124 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,738
|
Quote:
In the last 1/4 of the season the Ferrari was not good enough and FA was arguably overdriving to compensate and possibly looking for strategy options that weren't there. Thd RB was considerably better by then. Plus Vettel had a day of days coming back through in a car that ought to have retired. So he was fortunate in a collosal way. Funnily enough Alonso did something very similar in Baku 2 years ago albeit for a 7th place but opined it might well have been the best drive of his career. That's saying somwthing considering Valencia '12, Hungary '03 and a couple of other belters. Last edited by chunterer; 14 May 2020 at 10:41. |
|||
|
14 May 2020, 11:09 (Ref:3976107) | #125 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,244
|
Quote:
In the second half there was an overall improvement but it was a bit of a mixed bag. Massa never finished below 9th and although Alonso's last win was in Germany at the end of the first half of the season, in the second half he got seven podiums, three of which were 2nd places, though he also had a couple of retirements. 2014 was a dog. Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC. |
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The booing of Vettel & is Vettel a great? | Mr V | Formula One | 210 | 17 Sep 2013 22:58 |
Vettel To The Metal. Vettel/Webber/Hamilton incident. | Hazza | Formula One | 404 | 6 Oct 2007 15:04 |
Pollock: JV's F1 career over | VilleneuveTracy | Formula One | 73 | 1 Sep 2006 01:43 |
narains career over? | ABHIJIT ABRAHAM | National & International Single Seaters | 7 | 31 Dec 2001 06:48 |
Mika career over ore not ? | renaultbel | Formula One | 30 | 1 Jun 2001 22:31 |