Drivers/Marshals flag information

[gachjoel]

Marshals get training each year to flagging requirements as to what flags we should be putting out for such incidents ect..
how much if it, if any at all of this information gets passed on to the driver.
there has always been talk that drivers ignore...
eg, yellow flags due to inconsistency
So is it only marshals who get training/definitions of when a certain flag should be put out (in general).
and nothing in the same text/context is ever given to the driver..
it's the old saying of singing off the same hymn sheet..
all comments welcome

[Joyce George]

The flags and their meanings and use are an integral part of the ARDS. According to my hubby, it is the only part of the test in which you have to score 100% to get your licence. HOWEVER, there are no refresher courses - the only information after that is the Blue book, additional inserts in the MSA mag and the drivers briefings, if held, before a race. Plus, of course, our gentle guidance, should we end up with a driver on post for what ever reason.

[exflagman]

Not sure if it still does, but I think the drivers sign-on sheet used to state that by signing the divers acknowledge that they have read and understood the rules in the blue book. Not sure how many had though.

[Slipstick]

So at least it's improved a bit from when I started driving, before ARDS. Then it was just assumed that drivers would either talk to someone about what was going on or at least read the Blue Book (or learn about it from the Clerk AFTER getting it wrong ).

I'm guessing there will be quite a few confused drivers around early next season because the changes have been fairly major. There could even be a few confused marshals about because marshal's training isn't compulsory and not everyone reads t'interweb/stuff from the MSA. But certainly most of us do at least have the opportunity for some continuing formal training which drivers don't.

Steve

[MagnetON]

www.FlagMarshal.com includes a drivers section with comments and blue book definitions.

[275 GTB-4]

In Awstrayila, a new driver need to spend some time on the "bank" to understand what flaggies do...and of course, how flags are used...I believe if you let your CAMS licence lapse, you also spend another day on point for a similar reason.

This is how it used to be, can't vouch for it being the current way...but I always thought it was a brilliant idea. So many Drivers commented to me "I had no idea!" (how hard the job was to do right, how important it was for Drivers/Event safety and how little remuneration was involved!)

Can't speak for what might happen at AASA meetings etc

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

www.FlagMarshal.com includes a drivers section with comments and blue book definitions.

Not seen that section before, very useful.
So once ARDS is passed there is no way of knowing if the driver keeps up to date except for when he visits the CoC for the breach in rules

Cheers for the replies

[exflagman]

At one time HSCC used to mandate a 1/2 day on the bank for drivers guilty of a yellow flag offence before they where allowed to race again. I quite often got given one to 'educate - was quite interesting from both sides - one even came back for a second go even though he did not have to.

[Paul Newns]

What a great idea. Educational for the driver and flaggies get an opportunity to discuss flagging from a driver's perspective. I think we often assume what we do is correct but when viewed from the inside of a car at speed in close proximity to others it may be we can do things differently/better. Not heard of it being done before but maybe it could be an option available to Clerks, similar to speed awareness courses, i.e. you can take the points on your licence and a fine or do the course.

[Joyce George]

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

Absolutely spot on Joyce

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

What a great idea. Educational for the driver and flaggies get an opportunity to discuss flagging from a driver's perspective. I think we often assume what we do is correct but when viewed from the inside of a car at speed in close proximity to others it may be we can do things differently/better. Not heard of it being done before but maybe it could be an option available to Clerks, similar to speed awareness courses, i.e. you can take the points on your licence and a fine or do the course.

In the past we have arranged for a driver to attend the flag training sessions at Oulton Park - Chris Maries was usually the weapon of choice.
We also used to run a session out on the circuit where some of the experienced flag marshals drove round whilst the rest mentored the trainees, then swapped over, so they got a view of what the drivers could see of the posts.
One year we also tried mixing in some the Oulton instructors in the old school XR3i's to act as 'faster cars'. OK until one of the instructors got a bit carried away and spun into the barrier at Knicker Brook!.
Another time we tried it with race drivers chauffeuring us round - I remember Chris taking 4 of us round in a 'repmobile' at indecent speeds whilst doing a running commentary of where he was looking at each corner. Very illuminating - as Joyce stated it does give an idea of what/what not the drivers can see.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives.

We done this a few years ago at Pembrey on a Training Day, it change my thinking as to showing flags.
and also has changed/opened my mindset when reporting.

With regards to the Drivers Flag section in Flag Marshals, could that be printed off and used at a Training Day in respect how much Flaggys and Post Chiefs agree and can any additional information be added.
Just looking at finding a way where Flaggys and Drivers are on the understanding of specific flag use.
No.1 Looking at the guys & drivers on the ground being safer
No.2 Less Yellow flag infringements (which will Enhance No.1)

hope you can pick the bones out and work out my randomness

[Chigley]

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

Absolutely true. Some of the flag points at Silverstone might just as well not be there, you just don't see them when at speed and concentrating on other things. Donington is better but still has non visually attractive posts and their circuit flags are a disgrace.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

Well said Joyce, possibly the best post on this thread.
I you're tentively waving a dirty rag, 30 feet from the wrong side of the track, don't expect a driver who is travelling a 100mph, with limited field of vision, to see it!

[theracegypsy]

The old idea at castle Combe of doing a video of the circuit from a race car with drivers eye lens has been good at getting posts in the right place to be seen. It still requires attentive and distinctive flagging from the marshals.

[wolfhound]

On the subject of drivers being able to see the flag are should motorsport be looking at light systems like that produced by Tracksa.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=lights&page=4

http://tracksa.com.au/

They seem to be the solution to a lot of the problems in this disscussion.

[Chigley]

As an example of marshals post visibility watch this clip. Is any driver going to see a limply presented faded flag whilst this busy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFaOjcY_o7Y

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

On the subject of drivers being able to see the flag are should motorsport be looking at light systems like that produced by Tracksa.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=lights&page=4

http://tracksa.com.au/

They seem to be the solution to a lot of the problems in this disscussion.

I have used this system a few times, it has its good points (visibility, attention grabbing) but is often too slow to turn ON and OFF for my liking.

FLAGS can transmit a lot more useful information to Drivers IMHO (eg a frantically waved Yellow denotes urgency, whilst a lazily waved Yellow can mean the 4th lap under a safety car) etc etc (RIP Yul Brynner!)

[drewchef]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

Top sense.
After watching many Youtube in car videos, (admittedly in case I could see myself on the bank ), I've thought that when the drivers were concentrating and focusing on their race, through a full face helmet, well displayed and clean flags are essential. Waved and double waved will make them so much more visible.

Andy.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by drewchef

Top sense.
After watching many Youtube in car videos, (admittedly in case I could see myself on the bank ), I've thought that when the drivers were concentrating and focusing on their race, through a full face helmet, well displayed and clean flags are essential. Waved and double waved will make them so much more visible.

Andy.

But only if there are enough people to handle them - rather a well presented single flag than a badly presented double.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

Having done 4 years in the Safety Car, plus more years than I care to think about flagging and post chief ing, I can say with all certainty that a) it is the QUALITY of the presentation of the flag to the driver, b) the disgraceful state of some of the circuit flags c) The fact that with a helmet on and 20+ cars around you all at high speed, all concentrating on overtaking, avoiding contact, looking at apexs, back markers, often in poor visibility that flags are often damn near invisible! Now that I am on the committee of the BWRDC, I am going to try my hardest to get the marshal members to come to the track days & have passenger laps to SEE the driver's perspectives. I think you can talk about DWYs till the cows come home, but until the drivers can see the flags things will continue as before. Lights are far more visible, especially the ones at Snetterton and Oulton. I'm not advocating them, just stating my view from inside the car, when I'm actually looking for them.
If anyone wants an incar perspective, then just come and find us at any CSCC meeting, and we will try and get you on track for a a couple of laps. Ideally drivers should have a day on post, unfortunetly, in this day and age people cannot be made to put themselves in perceived danger. soory for long post, just a few of my thoughts.

Thank you Joyce for confirming much of what I have been saying.

Jim

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by JimW

Thank you Joyce for confirming much of what I have been saying.

Jim

And indeed what I have said. that the flags need to be cleaner and well presented. I still say that a well presented flag can convey a message to the driver better than lights because currently you can do more with a flag than a button. However I do accept that lights are FAR FAR better in poor visibility. For example oulton at the start of the year with british gt, I was on Warwick bridge and the visibility of the lights at lodge were brilliant in the spray/rain.

Maybe as part of the training day at oulton we can do passenger rides in a car with a flaggie on post displaying a well presented flag, and a bad flag to show what the driver sees. I did this a few years ago at pembrey and it was very valuable

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Chigley

As an example of marshals post visibility watch this clip. Is any driver going to see a limply presented faded flag whilst this busy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFaOjcY_o7Y

However, the tunnel vision view provided by this tiny video camera mounted behind the drivers head IS NOT what the driver sees or takes in with his peripheral vision

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

However, the tunnel vision view provided by this tiny video camera mounted behind the drivers head IS NOT what the driver sees or takes in with his peripheral vision

This is a better video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed3p_Dkialo

And there's more here

http://m.youtube.com/user/MattH501

It would be good to get them in full hd.....great view from the helmet, but you can see more than the video lets on as you have peripheral vision/can turn your head.