Ban on variable geometry wings & fan suction never made sense or saved a dime

[X-Guy]

The amount of downforce you can put on a racecar has always been self-limiting because there's only so far you can squash the tires down before the increase in rolling resistance outweighs any further increase in downforce.

The continued ban fan suction and variable geometry wings means teams must spend scores of hours in the wind tunnel developing an aerodynamics package for each and every track, instead of being able to take the same basic aerodynamics package and tune in for different track conditions.

[avsfan733]

you could always reinforce the sidewalls or run a higher pressure to compensate

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by X-Guy
The amount of downforce you can put on a racecar has always been self-limiting because there's only so far you can squash the tires down before the increase in rolling resistance outweighs any further increase in downforce.

The continued ban fan suction and variable geometry wings means teams must spend scores of hours in the wind tunnel developing an aerodynamics package for each and every track, instead of being able to take the same basic aerodynamics package and tune in for different track conditions.

Full venturis gave artificially high cornering speeds, there was no warning of a failure, meaning the driver could in no way do anything other than crash. Gilles V. death was caused by this to a great degree.
They also required bowling alley flat and smooth tracks, which have now become required by the FIA. The current tracks make the term road racing a bit of a farce. In the sixties up into to the seventies many tracks, in the US, had surfaces that looked like a often repaired highway, the way it should still be.

The fans kicked up debri into the trailing vehicles. It was the same as if a vehilce in front of you had a vacumm cleaner(which it really was) and simply sprayed all the dirt in your face. There was no way it could be sent elsewhere unless you also attached a debri collector which would have made it into a very fast vacumm cleaner.

The wings, I don't know why variable wings are banned. If they are operated by the driver that would take some skill.
Bob

[XGuy]

The Chaparral 2J "sucker car" was built to run on the road courses of the sixties, not today's pool table smooth surfaces.

The fan suction system was no worse than open tires at kicking up debris.

Variable geometry wings could be driver operated.

[StephenRae]

Xguy..You are quite right, think of the millions spent over the years trying to perfect the balance between downforce and forward speed.
Wasn't the ban on variable wings a knee jerk reaction to a fatal F1 accident in Spain. Early attempts at 'wings' had them attached to the uprights, they tended to fall off.

[Homer Simpson]

I forget which Chaparral I'm talking about, but one of them was run by Jim Hall and Phil Hill with driver-operated variable angle wings. The wings were set at full downforce mode, and a driver-operated pedal next to the brake pedal would adjust this to a low donwforce setting (on the straights, as the driver would only have to worry about the throttle and the wing pedal). On a few occassions the wings would get stuck at full downforce mode due to mechanical failure, which obviously hurt straightline speeds. However, the failures which led to accidents had more to do with mounting point failures, as StephenRae has pointed out...too bad, because these problems could have been sorted out had they not been banned so soon after their introduction.
BTW, imagine if mounting aerodynamic devices on uprights was legalized in F1 today...with no need to worry about keeping a consistent ride height with increased speed, you'd see softly sprung setups that would mean an end of today's twitchy, caffeine-laden cars. I'd guess lap times at kerb-riding tracks (like Imola) would be lowered by a few seconds at least.

[type49]

That would be the original "2E" which first ran at Bridgehampton N.Y. in 68'. Hall's "2C" debuted the movable wing the previous year at a race in Kent,Washington. Hap Sharps older Chaparral 2 was retro fitted.

[type49]

Humm..make those dates 1965 and 66...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by XGuy
The Chaparral 2J "sucker car" was built to run on the road courses of the sixties, not today's pool table smooth surfaces.

The fan suction system was no worse than open tires at kicking up debris.

Variable geometry wings could be driver operated.

The 2J never won either.

Alfa Romeo fan car won a race.

Drivers following both the 2J and the Alfa Romeo complaind bitterly debri being thrown at them, which is one reason they were banned.

[avsfan733]

they could simply aim the fan upwards...no one has complained about mine

[Mackmot]

If teams were allowed fans do you not thinl they would probably have spent even more money on the aerodynamics of the blade as well as the fluid flow to the fan, and the fan exhaust

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
The 2J never won either.

Alfa Romeo fan car won a race.

Drivers following both the 2J and the Alfa Romeo complaind bitterly debri being thrown at them, which is one reason they were banned.

I remember reading a history on these cars in which the author dryly pointed out that all of the complaints stemmed from the fact that the rest of the field were, indeed, BEHIND the 'offending' cars.

[RWC]

Originally posted by avsfan733
you could always reinforce the sidewalls or run a higher pressure to compensate

LOL.You rather quickly ended that little theory

[avsfan733]

I'm the guy who would ruin the fun at magic shows by telling everyone how its done

[KC]

Nothing ever made racing cheaper. No restrictions nor any limitations made racing cheaper. There is always someone willing to outpsend his competitors on tires, bodywork, engines, etc. to get the win. Even if all of that is kept in check, then track time is used to further refine the setup. You can't just lay it on driver variable wing geometry or vacuum undertray systems. Racing is and always will be expensive. it doesn't matter if your are racing a 15year FFord at your local road course or racing in F1, if you compete and want to be competitive you will spend as much as you have to.

[avsfan733]

fair enough I would actually go as far as to say its made things more expensive. Especially given rumors I have heard lately of people edm-ing the ports on karting engiens because its undetectable and machining isn't allowed in thoose areas

[Green Monster]

Originally posted by avsfan733
you could always reinforce the sidewalls or run a higher pressure to compensate

Sure, if you want to go racing on TRUCK tires. But who wants to run an Indy or Formula One car on them?

[avsfan733]

or the companies that bild tires for such series as F1 and CART could just build the tires with a stiffer sidewall

[Mackmot]

kevlar reinforced

[kudosdude]

Just a thought; isn't an engine just an air pump? take the intake from underneath the car, apply skirts (+ good airfilter). Voila no "moveable aerodynamic devices".

[avsfan733]

actually a guy did that in drag racing in the US, he ran into a problem wherein there wasn't enough air getting to the filter because of the engine vacuum sucking the skirts down into such a seal with the rack that the engine would bog. maybe with some sort of controlled leaker mechanism but then you run into the same problems with the rules

[Lanie]

for a 480 pound miniature formula style racecar.
I am considering variable wings in the rear. As is the current package has an undertray w/ diffuser, the rear wings go into the bellcranks. Rear wing is two separate five-element wings.

do you think at cornering speeds of 30-45 miles per hour, top speeds of 60 miles per hour, that variable angle of attack would be beneficial? I have been told that only the first 20 feet of a straight matters, so reducing drag on straight a- ways would be useless. Wouldn't the drag only factor in at higher speeds anyway? When cornering wouldn't a sort of "trailbraking" pattern of angle of attack be nice to have?


Do you guys know of anyone who has used vortex generators in the design of their aerodynamics?