Please may I have a rant.

[rescue dude]

Originally Posted by Woolley

And how often have we been out to a car in the gravel, only to find that the driver has thoughtfully applied the handbrake?

It might roll away.

[ian_c_uk]

Warning, what follows is a rant and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Ten-Tenths. (To be honest, it probably doesn't even represent the opinions of the poster when they aren't ranting.) I think those "not on post" should not make assumptions. We now return you to our normal ramblings.

I'm new to the "sport" of marshalling, but at the weekend we had an astra that both internal and ext kill switches had been used, multiple times, and the crew in the pits said the car was still live. Of course the following day the story was retold from those "not on post" that the Marshal's had failed to turn the electrics off.

Same for a clio that joined us, a (red) marshall saw, with his own eyes, the driver hit the internal kill switch, I also pressed the external one. The rescue unit arrived and also pressed the internal one, so both had been pressed.

However, when the doctor leant on the starter button and it was in gear, the car shifted forward! In the "wtf" moment there someone hit the wipers, and they were working too!

So please, let's not jump to conclusions, and let's not trust kill switches too much!

(ensuring it is out of gear is a useful one to avoid the car movement detailed above.)

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Ian_c_UK

. . .
Same for a Clio that joined us, a (red) marshal saw, with his own eyes, the driver hit the internal kill switch, I also pressed the external one. The rescue unit arrived and also pressed the internal one, so both had been pressed.

However, when the doctor lent on the starter button and it was in gear, the car shifted forward! In the "wtf" moment there someone hit the wipers, and they were working too!

So please, let's not jump to conclusions, and let's not trust kill switches too much!

(ensuring it is out of gear is a useful one to avoid the car movement detailed above.)

I have heard that some, electrically operated, master switches have a "push off, push on" action.

So one person pushes the button and the remote master is electrically turned off. Along comes the next person and presses the button again and the master switch is turned on.

Poor design IMHO.

Regards

Jim

[ian_c_uk]

I questioned this with a few, and all seemed to think that multiple presses would not be able to turn it back on?

As you say, very bad design, as we are wearing gloves etc it's easy even for one marshal to "double press to be sure" on the ext, and how much do we trust the driver to have done what he says given he has just had an incident and may not be 100% with us.

Kill switches should be just that.

[MagnetON]

If the car is fairly knackered then snip battery cables, problem solved.

[MagnetON]

First year of marshaling, attended a fairly spectacular roll (Phoenix Park) and was providing fire cover as the rescue crew did their "thing".

Deputy CoC comes up and points out that the external pull hadn't been pulled and that he'd look inside and the red master key was still in place.

He then proceeds to give out stink about the "shoddy standards of marshaling" and how we "should always ensure the electrics are isolated", goes on at us for about 5 minutes and finally stops.

At this point I point down the road about 100 yards:
"Dave, see that marshal in the middle of the road with the extinguisher"

"Yeah, I see him"

"He's at the battery, we felt the car was fairly isolated from the battery when it came out the car and carried on down the road!"

"Oh......"

[ian_c_uk]

[b1ackcr0w]

I think Ian makes a good point here. Yes there are some good general rules to follow. Yes, most times it's better to kill the electrics. Yes, it's a good idea to have a bottle as close to hand as possible.

There is a but though. If we browbeat each other as colleagues to follow an inflexable regimen of proceedure, we discourage ourselves from thinking situations through properly. I've experienced it so many times that marshals with much more experience than me have been so intent on proving their point, that they've discouraged me from actually doing anything for fear of being browbeaten.

All of the worst mistakes I've ever made on the bank we're caused by following habit, and letting myself get rushed into a rash action that wasn't thought through properly.

[S_Morrell]

Originally Posted by ian_c_uk

However, when the doctor leant on the starter button and it was in gear, the car shifted forward!

I was one of the rescue crew who attended this incident. I agree that there was some question as to wether the electrics were off or not. I know for a fact that one of my crew confirmed that he had pressed the kill button - as had the marshals at the scene.

However, I do not agree with the reason that the car moved. It was not because the starter was engaged - it was because there was a marshal attached to the front of the car trying to pull the front bumper away from the the car - but it was still attached. As soon as the marshal stopped hauling at the bumper - the car stopped moving.

It was a fun weekend though

[JimW]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

. . . Yes, most times it's better to kill the electrics. . . .

When are you thinking it might not be a good idea then?

If the car is on fire then the electrics might not be top of the list but still important when the flames have been controlled sufficiently to allow safe access.

Otherwise?

Regards

Jim

[ian_c_uk]

Originally Posted by S_Morrell

I was one of the rescue crew who attended this incident. I agree that there was some question as to wether the electrics were off or not. I know for a fact that one of my crew confirmed that he had pressed the kill button - as had the marshals at the scene.

However, I do not agree with the reason that the car moved. It was not because the starter was engaged - it was because there was a marshal attached to the front of the car trying to pull the front bumper away from the the car - but it was still attached. As soon as the marshal stopped hauling at the bumper - the car stopped moving.

It was a fun weekend though

So this car, that had a flat tyre, that afterwards took five marshal's to push to try and get onto the spectacle lift, (and I think it was this clio that the winch point snapped when the unit tried to pull the car forward), was pulled forward by one marshal using a piece of broken bumper?

He must have had herculean strength!

The marshal let go of the bumper when the car shifted and he heard the whine of the starter motor.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by JimW

Otherwise?

There's always exceptions.
I can only thing of one occasion I've consciously decided not to pull the electrics. Driver pulled off (about 400 yards away from me), very close to the track but in a position of relative safetly, and then started walking trackside towards pitlane. I set off in chase, as my priority was to get the driver in a more sensible place, other than the paddock leaving us with a car without driver.
When I caught up with him, Iasked if he'd done the electrics, got a reply in the affirmative, and started walking slowly back to the car. When I got there, I (surprise surprise) saw a multitude of lights in the cockpit.
However, by this time, the yellow flag had gone in - not that I could see that flag point because the angle I was at, I could only see a lack of a green behind me. I decided that for me to scramble over the tyres, run to the side of the track, isolate the electrics, and scramble back - particulary without immediate yellow flag cover, was more of a risk than leaving the electrics on.

It was a fairly exceptional combination of circumstances, but I stand by that decision, and it is such exceptions that I feel b1ackbr0w was referring to.

[S_Morrell]

[QUOTE=ian_c_uk]So this car, that had a flat tyre, that afterwards took five marshal's to push to try and get onto the spectacle lift, (and I think it was this clio that the winch point snapped when the unit tried to pull the car forward), was pulled forward by one marshal using a piece of broken bumper?

QUOTE]

Yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. I had my head in the car at the time; no-one pressed any starter buttons.
The car was yanked forwards by a marshal - even cars with flat tyres can move when pulled. I don't know who it was and I don't care.
Both of the doctors in the car and myself looked to this marshal with the bumper when the car started to move. Strange, then, that the movement stopped when we all shouted at the marshal to stop pulling.

At the risk of this becoming a debate on this web - I'll not reply to this post any more. If you wish to take issue with my opinion, come and see me at Oulton Park the next time you're there and I'll happily introduce you to the rest of the crew and the two doctors who witnessed this...

[ian_c_uk]

No thanks, it was me who had hold of the bumper when the car came towards me.

If this blame culture is so apparent in Marshalling then I suspect it is not for me.

Ian

[Woolley]

I remember attending a failed F3 many years ago, and pulled the master switch on that occasion. This was easily confirmed as the red light went out. When we returned, we discovered the electric dash was still on. Turned out they didn't want to risk losing the data, so had connected it directly and not through the master.

Perhaps it's something that should be part of scrutineering. Start the car, switch on everything electircal, pull the switch, let's see if anything's still on.

[S_Morrell]

Originally Posted by ian_c_uk

If this blame culture is so apparent in Marshalling then I suspect it is not for me.
Ian

Err - you were the one who blamed the doctor...

[ian_c_uk]

Originally Posted by S_Morrell

Err - you were the one who blamed the doctor...

Good point, that was an assumption. I know the starter motor moved the car, and I assumed someone in the car had leant on the button, for that I apologise.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

I have heard that some, electrically operated, master switches have a "push off, push on" action.

Hmmm.....that raises a couple of questions:

I believe the Blue Book states that the 'on' & 'off' positions must be clearly marked; difficult if they are both the same!

If the master switch is electrically-operated by a remote pushbutton, how can it be switched back on again without there being a live feed to the pushbutton? If that's the case, it's not a 'master' switch by my understanding of the terminology, as it leaves a circuit live.

I've always, erroneously it appears, assumed that electrical push-buttons on racing cars acted in the same way as emergency stop buttons on industrial plant - push once to kill everything, with a separate button to reset. I'd like to see the look on a Factory Inspector's face when he was told that a second push on the E-stop button reset a system!

[ian_c_uk]

Dave, or anyone, is there a "usual place" for the reset (to bring power back) and could it be confused with the kill switch inside the car?

[b1ackcr0w]

One example is if a car pulls off and is in an iffy position. You would hope the driver has the presence of mind to hit the kill before jumping the barrier. But if he doesn't, and the car shows no signs of deteriorating, why sent a body over the armco just to get the kill switch off?

You're definitely right that there aren't many occasions at all when it doesn't make sense. But the point I'm trying to make is that picking fault with occasional mistakes we all make, should take a back seat to encoraging people to think through what they're doing, so that they're more focussed on making good choices instead of looking over our shoulders for overly critical collegues.

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Perhaps it's something that should be part of scrutineering. Start the car, switch on everything electircal, pull the switch, let's see if anything's still on.

I have seen this done, however the standards of scrutineering vary greatly. Sometimes they have a very thorough look at the car and sometimes its just a quick once over. I suppose it depends on the amount of time they have and how many of them there are!!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by ian_c_uk

Dave, or anyone, is there a "usual place" for the reset (to bring power back) and could it be confused with the kill switch inside the car?

As I've never needed to reset a pushbutton system, I can't answer your question!

(With the more common type of mechanical switch, turning the switch clockwise restores power. The switch may be external, e.g. Formula Ford or internal, operated by an external remote toggle, e.g. Fiesta.)

[JimW]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

One example is if a car pulls off and is in an iffy position. You would hope the driver has the presence of mind to hit the kill before jumping the barrier. But if he doesn't, and the car shows no signs of deteriorating, why sent a body over the armco just to get the kill switch off?

You're definitely right that there aren't many occasions at all when it doesn't make sense. But the point I'm trying to make is that picking fault with occasional mistakes we all make, should take a back seat to encoraging people to think through what they're doing, so that they're more focussed on making good choices instead of looking over our shoulders for overly critical collegues.

Don't really agree with your example and I don't regard it as a driver's job but one for marshals.

But, more importantly, if people don't have a chance to see mistakes and learn from them, how do we make progress? And equally important, I don't accept that "blame culture" need have much to do with what I'm sure the people concerned recognise as a light-hearted dig.

Now, if I never made any mistakes, I would be being unfair in not allowing others to have a dig at me. But since I do, all you have to do is get the photographic evidence.

Regards

Jim

[ian_c_uk]

Thanks.

I've not (yet) had to use an internal, all externals I have come across have been push buttons, not latching just a soft press, so have assumed (and asked and been told) that these only turn "off"....

What do I know, still new to this lark.....

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by ian_c_uk

I've not (yet) had to use an internal, all externals I have come across have been push buttons, not latching just a soft press, so have assumed (and asked and been told) that these only turn "off"....

You need to do more clubbies! Don't worry too much about getting the electrics back on - if it's necessary, it's almost certain that the driver will still be there - let him (or her) do it.