Dario's site offline

Gregor · 19 Sep 2002, 19:23 (Ref:384326)

After his decision to go IRL, angry fans invaded his message board hurtling abuse and dissatisfaction at his decision. The webmaster then deleted all messages regarding this move and then removed the post option so nobody could post.

Now his site is totally down it seems. Looks like his fans (like me) Aren't to happy about his stupid, greedy decision to go IRL.

Jay · 19 Sep 2002, 19:51 (Ref:384343)

Doesn't surprise me.... He and the other two are going to have to face quite a wrath in Miami... Franchitti and Kanaan are normally pretty friendly too, so it'll be interesting to see how they handle it.

Russfeld · 19 Sep 2002, 20:14 (Ref:384361)

Its ironic that their so called turncoat 'fans' are preaching about integrity when they themselves have none.

And all the booing and negative response cant be doing much to convince them they made the wrong decision, would you want to hang around in CART with that kind of attitude from the fans?

It makes NASCAR look tolerant

Liz · 19 Sep 2002, 20:21 (Ref:384367)

Would you want to be in a series where people could sell out and nobody would notice or care?

That's where they have gone. And I hope they will enjoy it.

Russfeld · 19 Sep 2002, 23:15 (Ref:384483)

Id want to race in a series with race fans, not irrational hyperbolic 'us vs them' race bigots. A series where they respect me as a driver not based on what my passport or race license says.

Barbarosa · 19 Sep 2002, 23:29 (Ref:384488)

In all fairness to Dario and Tony, they probably have been looking for CART rides for next season for a while. I may not like it, and I may look at them as betraying their fans and the series that made them stars, but I can't hold it against them for going if it is the only ride they could get.

Then again, I'm not going to jump on anyone who does take it personal either.

Barbarosa

Jay · 19 Sep 2002, 23:40 (Ref:384493)

I don't think Dario and Tony need any reminder of how great the Cart fans are...but they both turned their backs on them... How will the fans react? Probably not well...

Conversly, PT is probably more popular than ever. I remember in Toronto people would be throwing compliments at him left and right as if he was their hero. I wonder if he gets that everywhere now...

Jay · 19 Sep 2002, 23:58 (Ref:384500)

Quote:

Originally posted by Russfeld
A series where they respect me as a driver not based on what my passport or race license says.

huh? err...I think you'll find that Cart fans have always been extremely friendly towards their drivers, and they always will be to those committed to Cart. I'm not sure about those three next weekend though. Still, they may not cheer them on, but I think they will show them respect at least.

Liz · 20 Sep 2002, 00:54 (Ref:384509)

I will not be rude to them if I happen to see them, but I won't speak to them either. And that has nothing to do with their passport or race license, but it has plenty to do with their willingness to sell out and their apparent expectation that it won't matter to anybody if they do.

Actions have consequences. If big fat paycheques will comfort them for the loss of respect of people who used to like them, then fine. It's all in what you want out of life. And I suppose like Eddie Irvine they can buy friends if they want them.

Russfeld · 20 Sep 2002, 01:02 (Ref:384514)

Why cant you just watch racing? You're so hopped up on what the series is called. The drivers owe very little to CART fans specifically. If anything they owe more to IRL/Indy500 fans because thats who's paying their bills.

This 'selling out' is nonsense. CART isnt the only series they raced in, its not the series that made them race drivers, its just a step in their career regardless of where it goes. They are racing drivers first, not CART drivers.

Im more impressed with Tony and Dario because of their loyalty to their employers instead of those of you who dare to call yourselves 'fans'

Jay · 20 Sep 2002, 01:15 (Ref:384519)

Russfeld, when was the last time you were around the Cart paddock? I ask this because your ast post shows a lack of knowledge of the situation and the series and makes me think you just watch all the races on TV and have little first hand exposure to the Cart series.

As for me, I am not interested in seeing cars race around on ovals. I am not interested in the cars driven in the IRL, if I want to watch similar cars race, I'll go watch the Toyota Atlantic championship which has a number of races that I can actually get to and IMO is much more exciting to watch. Same with Cart. The IRL is not going to hold races in Toronto, Montreal or even Cleveland for that matter. Tony George in speculating that his series would eventually kill Cart, has stated that he would only run maybe one or two road courses. He said one would be Laguna Seca, and the other possibly mid-Ohio. Without Cart as something for young Canadian open-wheel drivers to aim for, I'm not sure what will be left. I would probably find myself hitching rides to go watch Formula Ford and sports cars.

The way I see Cart, is that it's getting rid of some problems that had to go. It may be sad to see some of these teams go, but they are the reason Cart has had to dig itself out of this hole. Without them Cart can forge ahead without guys like Roger Penske and Chip Gannassi throwing the series into disrepute.

Tailwind · 20 Sep 2002, 01:35 (Ref:384529)

"If anything they owe more to IRL/Indy500 fans because thats who's paying their bills." -

How do you figure that. IRL/Indy500 fans haven't paid their bills. Their bills have been paid by Kool/Klien Tools and Panisonic. With the exception of one race, the IRL fans haven't supported them at all. There aren't enough of them to pay the bills. The Indy 500 is one of the few races on the IRL schedule that pulls in the numbers.

"I'm more impressed with Tony and Dario because of their loyalty to their employers..."

In addition, Dario is staying with Mikey, but Tony is leaving Mo Nunn his employer and I understand Panisonic is staying with CART. I fail to see the loyalty in that.

Flatspot · 20 Sep 2002, 02:00 (Ref:384542)

Russfeld, I don't agree with the vast majority of your post. Personally I'm not "hopped up" on what the series is called, I'm "hopped up" on what the series IS. You imply that CART and the IRL are the same thing, they are not. 16 Ovals is not the same as Ovals, Road Courses, and Streets. If this lack of variety is sufficient for you then I'm glad you're so easily amused.

You say the drivers owe very little to the CART fans. I say, only the livelyhood they've enjoyed for the past several seasons. The fans are the people who buy the products that pay the sponsors that fund the teams that hire the drivers. Without fans there is no racing. Your statement is without merit.

Owing more to the IRL/Indy500 fans than their existing fans is laughable. In time they will but today they don't. CART HAS paid the bills the IRL WILL pay the bills. In my veiw you always owe something to those that HAVE supported you.

Employer loyalties? First, Michael has never employed anyone before. Dario is following the remnants of his old team true, but loyal? I suppose its that same loyalty that had him talking seriously to Newman-Haas. Kanaan is with Mo Nunn, where does that figure into employer loyalty?

You did make one remark that makes sense to me and that is first and foremost these guys are racing drivers. I agree they need to do what they feel is best for them. On the other side of that is the right to express your displeasure with their choices. I don't mean hate mail or name calling but they should know they're choice is a bad one if that't the way you feel.

I'm a CART FAN forever, an IRL fan never. Well OK, until TG croaks.

bingman · 20 Sep 2002, 02:23 (Ref:384544)

i don't know why al u people keep wingeing about the IRL... Yes cart is better in terms of everything (talent, cars, circuts, racing). But if its racing i don't care if it's F1, F3000, formula ford, Cart, speedway, powerboats, IRL or even Nascar i still like it because i like racing as a hole..... Any racing sure beats the hell out of watching lawn bowls or cricket, etc, etc....

Liz · 20 Sep 2002, 02:34 (Ref:384546)

Not if it's the Invisible Racing League, it isn't. And calling a difference of opinion "whingeing" (even if you can't spell it) is a value judgement; we don't like the Invisibles -- which is why we are over here and not next door -- and we don't have a problem in saying so.

The only loyalty either Dario or Tony are showing is to anybody who will pay them, and I think that is sad. If I spent my entire life crusading for gun control and then went to work for the biggest gun manufacturer in America, should I not expect people to express their displeasure with my attempt to pretend that it wasn't the money that made me abandon everything I professed to believe in before the big paycheque was waved in my face? Sure I have the right to sell myself to the highest bidder, but I don't have the right to avoid all the consequences thereof.

I agree with Flatspot -- without name calling or hate mail, we have the right to tell our former drivers that we think they have made a bad choice and to tell them we will no longer be following their careers.

Russfeld · 20 Sep 2002, 02:46 (Ref:384549)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz

If I spent my entire life crusading for gun control and then went to work for the biggest gun manufacturer in America, should I not expect people to express their displeasure with my attempt to pretend that it wasn't the money that made me abandon everything I professed to believe in before the big paycheque was waved in my face?

Well in this case the drivers in question spent their life trying to find secure seats that pay well, which is what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally posted by Flatspot

You say the drivers owe very little to the CART fans. I say, only the livelyhood they've enjoyed for the past several seasons. The fans are the people who buy the products that pay the sponsors that fund the teams that hire the drivers. Without fans there is no racing. Your statement is without merit.

They're only loyalty to fans is to the fans that view the products of the sponsors that give them their jobs. Now that those sponsors (and team) are in a different league, that league's fan is their new boss.

I wish you guys could get over this political nonsense. Its ironic to use phrases like crappwagon and say the driver talent is sub-par, because thats what F1 thinks about CART.

bingman · 20 Sep 2002, 03:44 (Ref:384562)

Liz, fair enough if you prefer Cart over the IRL ( I also prefer Cart). But i don't understand how someone who likes one form of racing so much (i.e- Cart) can be so against another similar form of motorsport (i.e- IRL)... It's all motorsport and thats what counts.

(p.s- soory about my speling befor)

Jay · 20 Sep 2002, 03:53 (Ref:384563)

F1 also thinks that their fans should be honoured they were able to get within 20 feet of the podium after the Italian GP. F1 also thinks that it's inappropriate for drivers and teams to socialize with each other or fans between sessions. F1 also thinks that only employees and those who are worth at least 8 figures have any right to be near the drivers or the cars. Cart is not F1, and it doesn't intend to be.

Russfeld, the general philosophy in North American racing (IRL and Nascar too) is that the drivers and the series wouldn't be where they are without the support of the fans. This is why the drivers, teams and officials are receptive to fans and much more open and accessible than in Europe. This is also why Dario and Tony are going to have to face the music... A wiser move might have been to wait until the end of the season to announce this.

Jay · 20 Sep 2002, 03:58 (Ref:384564)

bingman, it really has to do with the fact that Tony George has stated that he believes there will only be one open-wheel series in North America in the future and that will be IRL. He has discussed his plans at length, and it would be an almost all oval series, with maybe two road courses. He mentioned Laguna Seca and Mid-Ohio.

For me, I think this would mean a huge blow to motorsport in Canada. We would lose three of the countries biggest events of any kind, and the best open-wheel series that would run within 500 miles of where I live would be Formula Ford... (not including the Canadian GP)

jcclausen · 20 Sep 2002, 04:27 (Ref:384575)

The IRL may make it, although it has a long way to go, but I'll guaran-damn-tee you Tony George will not. I said it before, T.G. is swimming with some big sharks. Eccelstone, France, Penske, Honda, Toyota to name a few. The first time he feels that he's no longer in control, like he did with the CART board of directors, he'll try to pull a power play. That's when Jaws will swallow him whole.

bingman · 20 Sep 2002, 05:00 (Ref:384587)

jay, i agree about T.G, he is a total wench and needs a kick in the balls, just shows thats he does not give a damn about motorsport and does it for the cash, why else would anyone want to run a series into the ground... However Cart does not need ovals. They should stick with street races and road course however i think street races are there real stregth as the atmosphere at street tracks is alway amazing and attendance is always great. People say theres not enough cash for both but i think if both series left each other alone do there own thing and promote themselves better they can all thrive. The Cart's money problems are not due to the IRL itself, it's because of the instabillty in the series that nobody wants to touch it (cause by T.G and Carts old management). Cart's product for the average racing fan is far beyond that of any other race series so it still has a lot going for it.

macdaddy · 20 Sep 2002, 06:32 (Ref:384613)

Jcclausen's hit a nail on the head with "Jaws will swallow him whole." Tony George has lost his "vision" because there are too many people standing in the way now that he can no longer see it. And if those people step very much closer then Tony won't be able to see anything at all. The sharks with which he swims are much better hunters than he is.

As for Dario and Tony being "sell-outs", well there is no question. Tell me that neither of them could have found a ride in CART next year. A good-paying ride with opportunities to win races. That "employer loyalty" stuff that Russfeld alluded to is nonsense. Dario drove for Barry Green, Kanaan for Mo Nunn. Last year probably neither one of them even liked Andretti. Both drivers are leaving their sponsors as well, as KOOL remains undecided about anything. Dario's even been quoted in the past as having a dislike for ovals. So, "sell-outs" they are.

f1manoz · 20 Sep 2002, 07:42 (Ref:384636)

If Tony George is eventually forced out, perhaps some of us may view the IRL as an alternative, but not a REPLACEMENT for CART. If oval racing is your thing, then the IRL is a good series to watch. I'm not a fan of ovals, so am not interested.

I think, or get the feeling, the majority of us are against Tony George (and perhaps the others who have taken the money and run) and not the actual IRL series (those small time guys who just want to go racing are doing their jobs. Nothing more.) Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

CART is forever, IRL never!!

The Snout · 20 Sep 2002, 07:58 (Ref:384643)

Tony George is a prick and will get his. So will Dario and Tony K. .
If you're at Miami, give them plenty. Sports about backing your favorites so if they pussy off to the Indy Retirement League let them know it in no uncertain terms.

If you want to go to church instead and want everyone to live happily together, no hard feelings, happily playing with your dicks then that's fine. And if anyone said something like that they wanted them to get injured in the IRL then that is just plain wrong and unwanted. But showing a bit of passion over something like this that has dragged on for years is great, a bit of feeling involved here.

Liz · 20 Sep 2002, 10:49 (Ref:384717)

No one wants anyone to get injured at their jobs, not really; even the people in NASCAR who cheer for multi car pile-ups assume that nobody has got hurt, I think.

If you spend your entire life looking only for a "secure job with a big paycheque" then the Mafia is the place for you. You can never retire and the pay is good, and they have good lawyers if you get caught. The point being that people who spend their lives chasing money and security sometimes end up with nothing else.

TG has said often enough that he wants to destroy Champ Cars. People who jump to his series are helping him achieve his vision. Assuming we don't want Champ Cars destroyed, it is natural to dislike anyone whose switches sides.

I'm still dismayed when WorldCom and Enron type things come along, but then when I read so many posts by people who believe that grabbing the big paycheque no matter what you have to do to get it is the only thing that matters, I start to understand.

P.S. I didn't mean to mock at your spelling, bingaman. Sorry if I stepped out of line on that.

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