It's building up...

MarkG · 26 Oct 2012, 18:58 (Ref:3158160)

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

Purist · 26 Oct 2012, 20:45 (Ref:3158207)

I do wish people would stop giving Vettel crap and just chocking it up to it only being the car. He certainly did NOT have the best car out there when he scored his first points, or when he kept it clean and clear in the wet 2008 Italian Grand Prix. He certainly didn't back down from Alonso last year at Monza. And the team still have to tell have, often to no avail, that he might want to not set so many fast laps. He is still very driven, and he shows it, which is certainly worth admiration and respect, especially for a driver who is not as seasoned as several of his prime competitors. He keeps pushing, but does NOT have a reputation for frequently throwing it off the road.

Hamilton has been far more prone to bonehead moves on the whole, and has become rather unpleasant in some respects. He was also just STUPID to lie to the stewards about what happened under that Safety Car in Australia. He's been particularly short with his crew over the radio, and for the last couple years, has come across as kind of whiny and annoying. His rapport with the team has been visibly breaking down for quite some time. He also hasn't had the consistency in his driving, certainly this year, and perhaps somewhat last year also.

Raikkonen is just harder to get a read on. He's not as "in your face" as some of the others, and hasn't run away with any races this year thus far. He does plug along there steadily though, and gets everything he reasonably can out of each race.

For Alonso, i can accept that he has had less than the best equipment in some seasons. However, I also think he has been too single-minded in the wrong ways, and not taken advantage of some good opportunities. He also blew a very good thing at McLaren there in 2007. Singapore 2008 did still more damage. Alonso just hasn't quite put together a full season this year, and admittedly, wasn't helped at Spa or Suzuka. Of course, one should remember that Vettel has had the car break on him twice this year, so the DNF count is about the same. It's a bit amusing to see Massa so hard on Alonso's tail now. I hope this extended challenge from his German rival helps to temper Alonso a bit.

I'm not sure what the story is with Button's inconsistency this year. I think Perez may be the real force at McLaren next year.

Grosjean needs tempering, but he has the raw pace, no question. It's strange though, he was very good in the GT1 Ford (frighteningly so in some cases). It's almost as if this year he's been overestimating the capabilities of F1 cars after being in those other categories for a couple seasons. And before everyone jumps on Grosjean, there were opening lap incidents about which he could have done nothing, practically speaking (Monaco for instance). Besides, for all the crap he's gotten, where the heck is all the ire for the bad moves made by Maldonado and Kobayashi?! I mean, I could understand (though not necessarily agree with) the criticism put on Romain, IF people would be even-handed and extend the same toward Pastor and Kamui.

formerf1champ · 26 Oct 2012, 22:50 (Ref:3158260)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

I would put Raikkonen just behind Alonso and ahead of Hamilton, but this is a quality OP. Well done!

**Bononi** · 26 Oct 2012, 23:11 (Ref:3158265)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

Wow, who can stop us from seeing the finger boy doing it again ??

JeremySmith · 26 Oct 2012, 23:36 (Ref:3158270)

I have sold my ticket to our Grand Prix, what's the point................

wnut · 27 Oct 2012, 00:00 (Ref:3158277)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have sold my ticket to our Grand Prix, what's the point................

Watch a truly great craftsman at work!

Seb Vettel (Fingerman) for WDC!

BSchneiderFan · 27 Oct 2012, 00:03 (Ref:3158279)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

I assume this is a wind-up/trolling exercise?

Mr V · 27 Oct 2012, 05:06 (Ref:3158320)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

According to the BBCF1 "experts", Vettel is the 8th greatest F1 driver ever in F1, 2 places ahead of Alonso, 7 ahead of Hamilton, Raikkonen doesn't make the top 20. Are they right? Who know's. That's their opinion, just as you have yours. What was that DC said about opinions being like ********s?

Tourer · 27 Oct 2012, 06:19 (Ref:3158329)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

Don't agree with your rankings of the current drivers in all respects but you're entitled to your opinion.

What i don't understand is how you see this is an anti climax or bad thing. Throughout F1 and MANY other forms of motor sport there are examples of the "best" driver not winning championships in any given year.

The reason for this is that motor racing is a team sport, it is about the car, the engine, the gearbox, how it is tuned and maintained, how well the pitstops are managed, the strategy and so on.

The driver is simply one member of the team and like any other team sport, performance comes from the whole team, not just one member of the team.

Sorry to say this but if you don't "get" that, then you don't "get" F1.

formerf1champ · 27 Oct 2012, 08:15 (Ref:3158353)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

According to the BBCF1 "experts",

I like the use of quotation marks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Vettel is the 8th greatest F1 driver ever in F1, 2 places ahead of Alonso, 7 ahead of Hamilton, Raikkonen doesn't make the top 20. Are they right? Who know's.

I know, and the answer is a resounding "No"!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

That's their opinion, just as you have yours. What was that DC said about opinions being like ********s?

Did DC say that to deflect criticisms of his performances?

QnickFTW · 27 Oct 2012, 11:25 (Ref:3158420)

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I know, and the answer is a resounding "No"!

It's good to have it confirmed then. Your comments certainly seem to hold some water (or at least some Austrialian Sour-Grape Juice

)

QnickFTW · 27 Oct 2012, 11:30 (Ref:3158422)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I assume this is a wind-up/trolling exercise?

Im glad some1 has noticed it. Its pretty much drunken football fan talk with a generous splash of trolling, good for a laugh, but substantial discussions are taking place elsewhere in this forum and not in this thread I feel.

Mr V · 27 Oct 2012, 12:57 (Ref:3158459)

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I know, and the answer is a resounding "No"!

Oh yer that's right, Webber's the best out there

tux · 27 Oct 2012, 13:10 (Ref:3158468)

Ask yourself this, how much of the Torro Rosso win was down to having a full wet setup? Looking at pictures the rear wing is much larger than anything Mclaren or Ferrari ran in Qualifying or the race. It was a great drive in horrible conditions im not denying that but that one victory whilst being impressive is does not mean he is a "godlike" driver.

Of course Vettel is a fantastic driver, just look at the way he constantly sets fastest laps during a GP and can turn the one lap pace on instantly at any point during a weekend. When he wins the title it will be well deserved because hes still had to drive the car, its not as if Newey is driving it as well as designing it.

Anyway, look at Schumacher, the guy dominated F1 when at Ferrari but has come back and been no where near wining a GP. Ferrari had the best car during this period (except 04/05) but has it taken anything away from Schumachers career? Do people now question him in the same way they question Vettel? No.

The way F1 is these days it will always be the best cars that win championships, but it takes great drivers to get them there.

Mr V · 27 Oct 2012, 13:41 (Ref:3158476)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tux

Ferrari had the best car during this period (except 04/05) but has it taken anything away from Schumachers career? Do people now question him in the same way they question Vettel? No.

Ferrari won 15 races in '04 so i'd say it was probably the best that year

I think you mean 05/06, although, Ferrari managed 9 wins to Renaults 8 in '06, so maybe we are actually looking at' 05 being the only year that Michael suffered (from his year 2000 Championship win i mean)

JeremySmith · 27 Oct 2012, 14:04 (Ref:3158485)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

Im glad some1 has noticed it. Its pretty much drunken football fan talk with a generous splash of trolling, good for a laugh, but substantial discussions are taking place elsewhere in this forum and not in this thread I feel.

We noticed it don't worry...

FAS33 · 27 Oct 2012, 14:19 (Ref:3158496)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tux

The way F1 is these days it will always be the best cars that win championships, but it takes great drivers to get them there.

this post is good and truthful, and not just in F1 but in nearly all Motoracing series.

MarkG · 27 Oct 2012, 14:39 (Ref:3158509)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

Im glad some1 has noticed it. Its pretty much drunken football fan talk with a generous splash of trolling, good for a laugh, but substantial discussions are taking place elsewhere in this forum and not in this thread I feel.

wasn't intended to be a windup, just an expression of disappointment, but it's obviously wound up some of you Vettel fanboys. My reaction to that is a bit like I imagine Kimi's would be.
I'll admit I'm biased because I don't think Vettel is a truly great driver.

tux · 27 Oct 2012, 15:01 (Ref:3158515)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Ferrari won 15 races in '04 so i'd say it was probably the best that year

I think you mean 05/06, although, Ferrari managed 9 wins to Renaults 8 in '06, so maybe we are actually looking at' 05 being the only year that Michael suffered (from his year 2000 Championship win i mean)

Yeah, your right, I meant 05/06! and as you mentioned in 06 Renault were very much equal to Ferrari.

Its a huge credit to Red Bull that they have been able to have a very quick car for such a long period of time now that there is very little in season testing. When Ferrari were dominating they were able to go and test when ever they wanted, im sure no week went by at Fiorano where an F1 car didnt see the track.

Armco Bender · 27 Oct 2012, 20:13 (Ref:3158617)

I felt it building up all season until I started having prunes for breakfast.

stripedcat · 27 Oct 2012, 22:02 (Ref:3158685)

Most of the time, the best car in F1 championship. On a few occasions it does not(e.g. 1986 with Prost in his McLaren - you could say that he was lucky because of Mansell's tyre blowout, but don't forget he had to fight with broken steering rack at Spa and had an engine failure at Hockenheim when he was leading; I'd say Schumi in 1994, 1995 and 2000 didn't have the top car of the field and still claimed WDCs).

On Vettel, well I suppose in some ways its difficult to gauge him yet. He is so young and has done less races than the other top drivers. I do agree that he can 'overtake'(I don't why everyone was saying that he couldn't - look at his moves on Alonso at Monza and Rosberg at Melbourne). I think that he probably is the best qualifier - that is where he seems to have a significant edge of all the other drivers. If he claims another WDC it would be impressive, and you can't say that he didn't deserve it because he had to fightback from being behind Alonso.

I'd like Alonso to actually win the WDC, because I think he has done more with a car which was never class of the field. But, I admit it looks likely that he'll be runner-up again.

JHamilton · 27 Oct 2012, 23:17 (Ref:3158717)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

to be a real anti-climax.
The two best drivers, Alonso & Hamilton, again beaten to the Championship by the fourth best driver, (Raikkonen being the 3rd) who has the best car, and has had for the last three years. Only tyres (up until recently)have prevented a Red Bull rout this year.

**Aysedasi** · 28 Oct 2012, 10:50 (Ref:3158942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I assume this is a wind-up/trolling exercise?

I don't think so - the OP expressed an opinion. Some will agree with him.......

W.A Trichlorostyrene · 28 Oct 2012, 14:44 (Ref:3159008)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

wasn't intended to be a windup, just an expression of disappointment, but it's obviously wound up some of you Vettel fanboys. My reaction to that is a bit like I imagine Kimi's would be.
I'll admit I'm biased because I don't think Vettel is a truly great driver.

Time for you to switch to one of today's many spec series?

Personally I am not a Vettel/Red Bull fan and I probably never will be, but I have to admit that the best package(driver AND chassis/engine/team/etc) is winning right now, so I can't complain.

When things get too dull(and they've been during the last few races I have to say), I just use the "don't like it/don't watch it" philosophy, and get my racing fix elsewhere. Plenty of other good series around.

**Bononi** · 28 Oct 2012, 14:59 (Ref:3159018)

I have my opinion...

This is just racing and that's the way it goes.

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