[Rules] DRS: Is it time for it to go?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That's one of the problems. It's pretty much unrestricted in terms of number of times it can be used, so F1 drivers have become too reliant on it and have forgotten how to overtake without it.

over a decade and this point continues to be made but no one ever takes the time to back it up. imo it could be of those sayings that is closer to the opposite when one actually takes the time to consider it?

anyways, plenty of examples from the last few seasons of drivers effecting passes in places where no one used to think it was possible to overtake.

also im a Max fan and that kid knows how to overtake. of course the other drivers are not as good as he is which may lead some to think that its because of DRS...those are just excuses!

[Aysedasi]

I really don't think it can be argued that DRS hasn't devalued (considerably) racing and overtaking In F1. Yes, we occasionally see great non-DRS overtakes but we also see dozens and dozens of instances of DRS overtakes. If DRS is to remain, it has to be made more 'realistic' otherwise we just get bored to tears with lap after lap of ludicrously easy overtakes in the same places.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I really don't think it can be argued that DRS hasn't devalued (considerably) racing and overtaking In F1.

subjective i suppose to the era of F1 you are comparing the DRS era to?

the decade prior to DRS characterized by increased manu support and funding created a spending divide so great as to have devalued racing and inherent competition to a far greater degree than DRS.

thats how i would argue it...by moving the goalposts obviously!

but seriously, do i wish that they could have found a way to remove the DRS band aid during this following decade...of course but the rule set has been very slow to change and until it does im going to choose to accept it and find the good in it.

how else can one manage to have watched 250odd races with it as a part of the show unless they have found a way to accept it?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

over a decade and this point continues to be made but no one ever takes the time to back it up. imo it could be of those sayings that is closer to the opposite when one actually takes the time to consider it?

anyways, plenty of examples from the last few seasons of drivers effecting passes in places where no one used to think it was possible to overtake.

also im a Max fan and that kid knows how to overtake. of course the other drivers are not as good as he is which may lead some to think that its because of DRS...those are just excuses!

I agree with you that drivers have not forgotten how to overtake. I think Leclerc is the best overtaker on the grid and his moves in Bahrain (on Verstappen), Austria (on Verstappen), Hungary (on Russell), USA (on Perez) and best of all, around the outside of Hamilton at Copse in Silverstone was the best of all. All of these moves were just as good as the sort of overtakes from before DRS. I don’t know what I would call the best overtake ever, although Steve r reminded me recently of Senna’s move around the outside of Karl Wendlinger at the Craner Curves in Donington 1993 and that would have to be a contender.

But what I do think has been devalued by DRS is defending. I can only think of a few examples of great defensive drives in the DRS era, and these are mostly when the driver involved had nothing to lose, like Alonso in Hungary 2021 and Perez in Abu Dhabi 2021, both against Hamilton.

In the Brazil sprint race, you could have put Gilles Villeneuve in that Haas, and he could have driven as perfectly as he did in Jarama 1981, and he would still have dropped down the order like Magnussen did. Because DRS made it impossible for him to defend that lead. Maybe this needs to be combined with the cars being made harder to drive so that a defensive drive like Jarama 1981 is considered as impressive as it was at the time. In Spain, Verstappen’s DRS wasn’t working and Russell was able to defend against him, and it created some really exciting racing.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

right!

i would suspect that in addition to designing cars that run optimally in clean air/in the front, i wonder how many teams actually have the computing power to simulate or wind tunnels sophisticated enough to factor in airflow in the middle of crowded field?

You also need to add in straight line, rotation, pitch and roll etc.

One of the big issues Mercedes have had in 2022 is that all the years their engine gave them a big advantage they were calibrating their aero to run at the front, in clean air.

Once they ended up back in the pack they've had to undo a lot of that, which will have been, and will continue to be right now, very time consuming and taking resources from other potential areas of development.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

how else can one manage to have watched 250odd races with it as a part of the show unless they have found a way to accept it?

Having no choice comes into it.....

But to be fair, some well argued points from yourself, Mr. Frog and peebee. I just find it hugely offensive for my enjoyment of the sport to see cars breezing past one another just because they can open a flap on their rear wing on multiple occasions on each and every lap. The band aid (as you rightly describe it) should have been removed by now, however there seems to be only limited inclination to try and find something better.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The band aid (as you rightly describe it) should have been removed by now, however there seems to be only limited inclination to try and find something better.

given that i am also a big proponent of the budget cap and lowering costs and as DRS is no doubt a much cheaper solution then a new engine or aero formula that for sure adds to my favouring of DRS.

double edge sword of a low cost solution here may be that it because it is a cheap fix, the teams have now been disincentivised to commit to the spending necessary to solve the real underlying issues?

a case of be careful for what you wish for i guess!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

But what I do think has been devalued by DRS is defending. I can only think of a few examples of great defensive drives in the DRS era, and these are mostly when the driver involved had nothing to lose, like Alonso in Hungary 2021 and Perez in Abu Dhabi 2021, both against Hamilton.

im getting into the 'trying to hard to defend my position' so will try to scale back the hyperbole.

but the list of examples increases when you add times the lead driver use their extra HP to defend/create separation before an activations zone, or when when both lead and following cars are on different tires/have different tire health, and increasingly (as earlier mentioned Chuck and Max' late race fight at Jeddah) more examples of creative uses inside the DRS activations zones and corners.

for the first time in ages, we are seeing back and forth battles across several laps...thats not nothing.

10 years and a generation of drivers have now grown up with DRS and the way how some of them are creatively interpreting the tactics surrounding the use of DRS and KERS defense is pretty nifty imo.

anywho, thats my two cents but rest assured i take much pride in having written many many words while changing nobody's opinion on the subject!

thats the real win!

[Taxi645]

A different and slightly less artificial change to DRS


I’ve proposed this once before, but I’ll try to make an effort to argue it a bit better.

The main point against DRS is that it is in artificial way to promote overtakes that hardly produce much excitement or much racecraft. Flip it open, cruise by with a 20mph difference and bye bye.
If the DRS zone is too short, people complain overtaking is impossible. If it is long enough or too long than people will call it artificial (and rightly so in my view).

In the past you had to use subtle racecraft to stay close enough through the corners and then hope the slipstream would do enough to bring you to striking distance. This would be very exiting to watch because you could see the race craft and also the cars would be hurling at the next corner in close proximity and approximately the same speed. The latter really enables the tension to build up because the car on the straight are close for a long time and it is unclear what is going to happen. That’s where a lot of the excitement came from I reckon. The way it is now, is that the time that the cars are close to each other is very short because the combined effects of the slipstream and the DRS makes the speed difference so big there is nothing subtle or tension building about it.

So what could you change with DRS that it would facilitate the tension building one had with the old fashioned slipstream, but still help the following driver to overcome the corner deficit he has that is normal with high downforce cars?

In my opinion, the should experiment with putting the DRS zone at the start of the straight in stead of the end like it is now. Why? Three reasons:
1 You have the corner deficit sooner out of the way by placing the DRS zone directly after the corner.
2 The cars are closer to each other for more of the straight allowing tension to build.
3 For much of the straight and especially braking at the end of the straight the speed difference will be much smaller, making the fight much more subtle and the outcome much more uncertain.

So what would this mean in practical terms?
Well the DRS zone starts directly when you are far enough out of the corner to not let lateral grip compromise longitudinal grip and it needs it probably need to be a bit longer because the speeds at the start of the straight are of course lower and the air resistance increases with the power of 3 with the increase of speed (not with the power of 2 by the way) so DRS will have less effect. This would be counter balanced perhaps by the fact that you will also gain more slipstream effect sooner on the straight because you will be closer sooner. One would need to test.


What do you guys reckon?

[Taxi645]

One could also consider the DRS to switch off if the following car is within say 0.2s. That way you could make sure it is never overpowering and the rest needs to be done by slipstreaming and/or outbraking the opponent, but perhaps such an approach would also carry slightly more safety risk.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

One could also consider the DRS to switch off if the following car is within say 0.2s. That way you could make sure it is never overpowering and the rest needs to be done by slipstreaming and/or outbraking the opponent, but perhaps such an approach would also carry slightly more safety risk.

As one who detests DRS, if it has to remain, I'd consider this worth a try.

[Greem]

I've long thought that the mention of a "DRS train" could easily be got rid of by making sure that if there are several cars within 1s of the preceding car, then only the final car in the train gets DRS.

For even more fun, only allow DRS to apply if there's 3 or more cars in the train.

I've never been that fond of it, but it might as well give the power to the driver at the rear end as it might the driver at the front!

[S griffin]

I don’t see the need for it, cars can race closer now. So it’s not necessary. Let drivers use their skills again. The sooner it’s gone the better. We need less over complicated rules

[Tourer]

Certainly saw several passes (or near passes) in Baku in non-DRS zones or non-DRS times of the race. Might simply be the nature of that circuit of course (the long cute with the capacity to slipstream isn't something we regularly see for example).

There are some circuits where the DRS seems to really be needed but Baku isn't one of them. No doubt also, if there was no DRS, the teams / drivers would likely find a way to get it done, rather than waiting for the DRS.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

As one who detests DRS, if it has to remain, I'd consider this worth a try.

Not sure if they would consider the GPS tracking accurate enough for the purpose? Cause that is what you would need to measure the gap at any given time instead of at a detection line.

Originally Posted by Greem

I've long thought that the mention of a "DRS train" could easily be got rid of by making sure that if there are several cars within 1s of the preceding car, then only the final car in the train gets DRS.

For even more fun, only allow DRS to apply if there's 3 or more cars in the train.

I've never been that fond of it, but it might as well give the power to the driver at the rear end as it might the driver at the front!

I’m afraid that with that proposal you would often just get random back and forth behind the first car of the train. Consider the scenario where you have 4 cars in a DRS train. The first one is the slowest, the third is the fastest, the 2nd is 2nd fastest and the last one third slowest. The latter would get DRS and pass the third guy (who is actually fastest). Now they are switched around but now the fastest guy has DRS and passes him back again. At the same time the second guy can’t pass the first because he doesn’t have DRS. You can swap who is fastest and slowest around, but I reckon it would not solve anything.

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t see the need for it, cars can race closer now. So it’s not necessary. Let drivers use their skills again. The sooner it’s gone the better. We need less over complicated rules

Well we saw in Bakuh that the shorter DRS straight and the cars producing more downforce this year, overtaking was very hard if you didn’t have a (DRS)speed advantage like the Red Bulls. People got stuck behind others for the whole race ( I mean it should be hard, don't get me wrong, but I reckon it was a little too hard). I would be very happy if we could do without DRS, but for the time being it seems it’s a necessary evil. I do think the proposal I listed would help a lot to reduce the extend to which it makes overtaking with DRS so artificial right now.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Certainly saw several passes (or near passes) in Baku in non-DRS zones or non-DRS times of the race. Might simply be the nature of that circuit of course (the long cute with the capacity to slipstream isn't something we regularly see for example).

There are some circuits where the DRS seems to really be needed but Baku isn't one of them. No doubt also, if there was no DRS, the teams / drivers would likely find a way to get it done, rather than waiting for the DRS.

I agree that without DRS, drivers and teams would look harder for other ways to overtake, but there's only so much you can do in a high downforce category. For instance the one from Alonso on Sainz was because Sainz got held up by his teammate in the opening lap. The one where Hulkenburg got passed, was because he made an error in the corner before (which still counts as a worthwhile overtake of course, certainly better than any DRS one).


I'm not really receiving much feedback on the merit of what is at the core of the proposal: To use DRS to get the following cars close enough to let the natural slipstream effect and the classic positioning and braking dual do their thing on the straights rather than the current woosh by or not?Was I clear enough explaining why it would possibly be a better way of doing DRS with minimal change?

One further example I failed to mention: On the straight in a battle for position the leading car is allowed ONE sideways more (before braking). In the past the timing and speed when making such a move was a fine craft in trying to keep the following car behind. In turn the following car was trying to trick the front car on which side he was going to pass. This could make for interesting, prolonged fights on track. I know of one F1 rookie to use this single move to defend against a following car with DRS. He was slammed for making such a dangerous manoeuvre at such speeds. So something that was previously part of the finecraft of racing was now lambasted as dangerous because the DRS made the speed difference too large to make if safe and subtle like it used to be. I find this very sad.

The proposal I made tries to still compensate for the corner deficit of the following car as is now with the current DRS, but in a way that is much more exiting to watch, requiring much more classic racecraft and as a result being a lot less artificial.





Anyway, from 2026 they will use active aero to aid the following car in the corners and then DRS would not be necessary any more, but till that time this would be a minimum change alteration with potentially a very positive impact on both on how it improves the quality of racing and reducing the justly artificial perception with the more purist motorsport fans (to whom I consider myself part).

[Sodemo]

They need to shrink the front and rear wings by about 50% and try and recoup that lost DF by increasing the underbody aero somehow. My amateur aero designer brain also says they need to lower the front wing by 30-50mm so that the wing is in less dirty air (cleaner air is nearer the ground - correct?).

[broadrun96]

I still stand by Indy has the right plan but no way the FIA would ever consider it. Allow an overboost/electric/whatever in x amount for all for the race to use as they need to defend or attack. Or mix it up FE style and let the 2 most popular get a voted on boost and melt the internet down.

Everything above applies if they feel the need to have something

[Sodemo]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...n-gp/10464059/

This article makes me lose faith…

A straight as long as that and they need moar DRS?

[Born Racer]

Very strange that the drivers themselves should be in favour of such powerful DRS. It just turns into a car pace and straightline speed competition, one at which Red Bull are particularly excelling at.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...n-gp/10464059/

This article makes me lose faith…

A straight as long as that and they need moar DRS?

Thoroughly depressing. It just goes to show that, a couple of passes aside during each GP (if we're lucky), overtaking without artificial assistance is becoming a lost art....

[S griffin]

This shows it should never have been introduced in the first place. Cars can follow closer now, even if I don't expect loads of overtaking per race. It's time to get rid of it.

[Born Racer]

They're missing a golden opportunity here to have more great wheel to wheel stuff balanced with the challenge of overtaking.

If you'd told me twenty years ago, we'd now be complaining about an over-abundance of overtaking, I'm not sure I'd have believed you!

[Sodemo]

But it’s not really overtaking, it’s one car sailing past another (in a lot of cases). I think the art of outbraking another car into a corner certainly now is becoming a lost art. There are more ways to overtake than out braking, you can pass in a traction zone on the exit of a corner, but a Dan dare outbraking move is I think what a lot of fans think of when they say they want to see more overtaking.

[BTCC frog]

Obviously DRS was only ever designed as a sticking plaster until the cars became better at following each other. But I don’t know if it was intended to stay for 13 years.

And I think the problem now is that everything is now being designed around DRS. The cars are designed expecting to be able to use DRS, as are the tracks. And the drivers are now becoming so used to racing with DRS that when it is slightly difficult to overtake they complain. The longer it goes on, the more difficult it will be to scrap DRS, so I think it needs to go at the end of this season. It is easier to then fix those problems when DRS is already gone than to expect to be able to fix them and then scrap DRS, and I think we would accept a year or two of overtaking being very difficult if, in the long term, we could have proper racing again where it is easy to get close but difficult to actually make an overtake.

And I agree with the many people that say push to pass is better, but for me it is a completely different concept to DRS. I would be happy for it to be added as a replacement, but equally happy if DRS was scrapped with no replacement.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If you'd told me twenty years ago, we'd now be complaining about an over-abundance of overtaking, I'm not sure I'd have believed you!

Indeed, it is strange! Off topic, but I wonder what the equivalent will be in 2043. Perhaps the complaints of F1 being too predictable will be answered with an excess of gimmicks and we will be complaining that it has become too random.