2023 Season

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yes, for the machinery he’s had. Hence he’s generally rated as the fastest outright driver, if not the best overall racer as per Verstappen is and Hamilton maybe was.

Hence Charles get the big bucks and Carlos gets what’s left over.

Indeed and with 20 poles, he clearly is very fast but he has only 5 wins, which doesn't seem like a good conversion rate. Being the fastest outright driver is only part of it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed and with 20 poles, he clearly is very fast but he has only 5 wins, which doesn't seem like a good conversion rate. Being the fastest outright driver is only part of it.

I really haven't followed the Ferrari drivers or the overall Ferrari performance woes, but I think we have examples of cars that qualify well, but for technical reasons those same cars might have poor race pace. Such as it seems the Haas is able to quickly get tires working for qualifying (and qualify high at times) that that same ability turn them on quickly results in higher degradation during the race (finish many positions behind where they qualified).

My point being that it might be unfair to look hard at Leclerc's pole to win conversion rate? But I say this without really thought much as to "why" they are not doing well. My memory was that Ferrari had the leg up awhile back, but that dropped away after the battery system allegations. So the question is... During the period in which Leclerc was getting poles, did he throw away wins, did the team throw away wins (poor strategy, etc.), was the car letting him down or maybe a combination of all of those?

Richard

[S griffin]

I’d argue Leclerc has got poles due to the fact he’s more willing to push the car to the edge. Of course it has caught him out a few times, like Monaco 2021, but it also gets a car a bit higher up than it perhaps should

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’d argue Leclerc has got poles due to the fact he’s more willing to push the car to the edge. Of course it has caught him out a few times, like Monaco 2021, but it also gets a car a bit higher up than it perhaps should

Your imagination is very overactive.

Now you claim that Sainz is top team-leader material but doesn't push to the max in qually?

EVERY F1 driver pushes to the absolute maximum, especially in qualifying. It's what they are - even the 'slower' drivers bringing massive budgets.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Your imagination is very overactive.

Now you claim that Sainz is top team-leader material but doesn't push to the max in qually?

EVERY F1 driver pushes to the absolute maximum, especially in qualifying. It's what they are - even the 'slower' drivers bringing massive budgets.

You just don’t get it do you? Enough with the petty insults, it’s not adding anything to the discussion

Just because Sainz is not naturally quick as Leclerc, does not mean he can’t lead a team. And not every driver will push to the absolute limit, just the limit they feel comfortable with. Some might occasionally go over that limit, like Leclerc, which sometimes he gets away with, sometimes not. That’s how I see it. Now accept that people are allowed to have a different viewpoint from you

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You just don’t get it do you? Enough with the petty insults, it’s not adding anything to the discussion

Just because Sainz is not naturally quick as Leclerc, does not mean he can’t lead a team. And not every driver will push to the absolute limit, just the limit they feel comfortable with. Some might occasionally go over that limit, like Leclerc, which sometimes he gets away with, sometimes not. That’s how I see it. Now accept that people are allowed to have a different viewpoint from you

I get it. I don't mean petty insults, sorry.

It's just that you contradict yourself and change your mind daily.

It's fine wanting to grow knowledge but presenting fantasy as fact is not adding anything to the discussion. Of course it is your right to have opinions (be it from watching the TV or reading what clueless journos write or whatever) but that doesn't make those opinions reality.

And of course every F1 driver pushes to the absolute limit. That's very basic motor racing at sprint race level.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Your imagination is very overactive.

Now you claim that Sainz is top team-leader material but doesn't push to the max in qually?

EVERY F1 driver pushes to the absolute maximum, especially in qualifying. It's what they are - even the 'slower' drivers bringing massive budgets.

In S.griffin's defence, he never actually stated that claim.

[S griffin]

I’m not presenting fantasy as fact, I’m offering my own two cents to the discussion. You haven’t really debunked anything I’ve said either

And as for pushing to the absolute limit, every driver doesn’t do that all of the time. As Martin Whitmarsh once said there are three types of drivers. Those who don’t get enough out of the car, those that get do what’s expected of the car and those that get more out of the car than most. I think that’s a good way of looking at it

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m not presenting fantasy as fact, I’m offering my own two cents to the discussion. You haven’t really debunked anything I’ve said either

And as for pushing to the absolute limit, every driver doesn’t do that all of the time. As Martin Whitmarsh once said there are three types of drivers. Those who don’t get enough out of the car, those that get do what’s expected of the car and those that get more out of the car than most. I think that’s a good way of looking at it

I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above and would also like to add that a 'proper good' driver would be aware of where 'the limit' is and not push beyond it. Young Charles has had quite a few self-induced offs in practice, qualifying and in races, which for me, is a reason why I have started to doubt all of the hype that surrounds him...
(But then what do I know? I only started to work for a professional racing team in 1987 and am still employed by the same company!)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m not presenting fantasy as fact, I’m offering my own two cents to the discussion. You haven’t really debunked anything I’ve said either

And as for pushing to the absolute limit, every driver doesn’t do that all of the time. As Martin Whitmarsh once said there are three types of drivers. Those who don’t get enough out of the car, those that get do what’s expected of the car and those that get more out of the car than most. I think that’s a good way of looking at it

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above and would also like to add that a 'proper good' driver would be aware of where 'the limit' is and not push beyond it. Young Charles has had quite a few self-induced offs in practice, qualifying and in races, which for me, is a reason why I have started to doubt all of the hype that surrounds him...
(But then what do I know? I only started to work for a professional racing team in 1987 and am still employed by the same company!)

I think Charles is aware that his approach will get him unstuck at times, but I think he’s also said he would try hard to cut out mistakes as time goes on. Time will tell. Maybe if he was in the Red Bull his approach would be slightly different

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m not presenting fantasy as fact, I’m offering my own two cents to the discussion. You haven’t really debunked anything I’ve said either

And as for pushing to the absolute limit, every driver doesn’t do that all of the time. As Martin Whitmarsh once said there are three types of drivers. Those who don’t get enough out of the car, those that get do what’s expected of the car and those that get more out of the car than most. I think that’s a good way of looking at it

Not getting the most out of the car and the driver thinking he's not pushing to absolute are very different things.

Cheers, anyway. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, and sometimes make good points, although I haven't bothered debunking a lot of your comments as I think them obvious total nonsense, and I know others do too.

Like claiming F1 drivers don't push to the max in qually...

Like saying the Sky UK live F1 monopoly is "selfish..."

Like claiming Ingram drives a Toyota in BTCC...

Like claiming the team chose to stay with the Ford, when actually they wanted to switch to Audi but weren't allowed...

Like BTCC teams picking drivers who don't bring budgets...

Etc.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not getting the most out of the car and the driver thinking he's not pushing to absolute are very different things.

So you agree with S Griffin then?
He said every driver pushes to their personal limit. Sometimes that exceeds the car's limit, sometimes it falls short.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not getting the most out of the car and the driver thinking he's not pushing to absolute are very different things.

Cheers, anyway. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, and sometimes make good points, although I haven't bothered debunking a lot of your comments as I think them obvious total nonsense, and I know others do too.

Like claiming F1 drivers don't push to the max in qually...

Like saying the Sky UK live F1 monopoly is "selfish..."

Like claiming Ingram drives a Toyota in BTCC...

Like claiming the team chose to stay with the Ford, when actually they wanted to switch to Audi but weren't allowed...

Like BTCC teams picking drivers who don't bring budgets...

Etc.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So you agree with S Griffin then?
He said every driver pushes to their personal limit. Sometimes that exceeds the car's limit, sometimes it falls short.

Not really.

Sometimes he did say that and sometimes, in fact often, he contradicts himself.

Maybe I'm being overly harsh in my surprise that someone can watch keenly over the long term, while at the same time having such a poor grasp of what is actually happening. I'm sure if I ever met him I'd buy him a drink, but I find the contradictions and misunderstandings quite bizarre and frustrating.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not really.

Sometimes he did say that and sometimes, in fact often, he contradicts himself.

Maybe I'm being overly harsh in my surprise that someone can watch keenly over the long term, while at the same time having such a poor grasp of what is actually happening. I'm sure if I ever met him I'd buy him a drink, but I find the contradictions and misunderstandings quite bizarre and frustrating.

No, think you are reading far more in to statements than exists. A driver can be BOTH things and that not be a logical fallacy.

[Greem]

ANYWAY...

2023. The teams are on their way to Zandvoort to start building their garages/hospitality units etc. Well, Haas definitely are as my friend Matt was on a plane over there this morning!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

ANYWAY...

2023. The teams are on their way to Zandvoort to start building their garages/hospitality units etc. Well, Haas definitely are as my friend Matt was on a plane over there this morning!

Saw movement from Alpine today too...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Saw movement from Alpine today too...

That's good, what have they been doing?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chunterer

That's good, what have they been doing?

Not sure. Just spotted the trucks moving north through France.

[S griffin]

Zandvoort doesn't really excite me, it just doesn't feel the same anymore. I did enjoy them going back to Portugal, Algarve was nice, but that's gone unfortunately

[Richard C]

It's been a rough summer break as a F1 fan. I guess I could be watching other open wheel series such as Indycar, or Super Formula. But I ended up finding...

K4GP

Maybe this is what F1 should be It seems to be relatively free spec, but you must run a 660cc engine. It does have multiple classes. People race regular Kei cars, but also build full on race cars including homage cars of famous cars in the past.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...cing-minicars/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKx7wbC3KqQ

The YT video is super long, but you can fast forward to see some of the very unique aspects of Japanese car and motorsports culture that makes it so lovable and fun. You watch the cars go around thinking they are behind a pace car... no they are racing! The speeds are just low.

I know it's very off topic, but I had to share. As a side note, my current daily driver car is a 1997 Mitsubishi Minicab Kei truck (top speed about 100kph). Due to a transition to "work from home" I no longer have to commute and moved over to the Kei truck just for fun.

Edit: F1 related topic... 4KGP car that used Tyrrell style front wheel setup... https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co...steering_made/

Richard

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Richard C

It's been a rough summer break as a F1 fan. I guess I could be watching other open wheel series such as Indycar, or Super Formula. But I ended up finding...

K4GP

Maybe this is what F1 should be It seems to be relatively free spec, but you must run a 660cc engine. It does have multiple classes. People race regular Kei cars, but also build full on race cars including homage cars of famous cars in the past.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...cing-minicars/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKx7wbC3KqQ

The YT video is super long, but you can fast forward to see some of the very unique aspects of Japanese car and motorsports culture that makes it so lovable and fun. You watch the cars go around thinking they are behind a pace car... no they are racing! The speeds are just low.

I know it's very off topic, but I had to share. As a side note, my current daily driver car is a 1997 Mitsubishi Minicab Kei truck (top speed about 100kph). Due to a transition to "work from home" I no longer have to commute and moved over to the Kei truck just for fun.

Edit: F1 related topic... 4KGP car that used Tyrrell style front wheel setup... https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co...steering_made/

Richard

That's somewhat random - a race that starts with people in fancy dress running across the track old Le Mans style to tap the windscreen of the car to release it and a line-up that includes mini replica Porsce 935, McLaren CanAm, Alfa T33, GT 40, a single seater and other oddities alongside what look like standard road Kei cars.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

That's somewhat random - a race that starts with people in fancy dress running across the track old Le Mans style to tap the windscreen of the car to release it and a line-up that includes mini replica Porsce 935, McLaren CanAm, Alfa T33, GT 40, a single seater and other oddities alongside what look like standard road Kei cars.

It's such a combination of stuff. It also looks like it would be huge fun.

Richard

[veeten]

Well, after today's effort, we can say that Vowels has 'no time for Sergeant', and will replace him with Mick Schumacher for the rest of the season.

Just a feeling, that's all...