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Old 9 Jan 2023, 00:20 (Ref:4139269)   #51
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Reaction, or lack of within F1 circles has not impressed / has surprised Sulayem it seems.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/01/09...tti-gm-f1-bid/
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 03:56 (Ref:4139278)   #52
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 09:25 (Ref:4139310)   #53
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I too have had enough of this snobbish attitude by the other teams. They need to remember they aren't in change
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 09:40 (Ref:4139315)   #54
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There's a lot going on here with the FIA new brush seemingly keen to battle Liberty to see who is really in charge of F1. (I don't know anyone who thinks it's the FIA...)
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 11:33 (Ref:4139326)   #55
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I might be the exception to that,the championship is run under the FIA umbrella and Liberty hold the commercial rights.As I posted a few days ago,I think we are witnessing an assertion of that situation.
On a slightly different note,I can't help thinking that the American influence is at risk of misfiring.I have read reports of the Las Vegas event and the resort/hotels offering obscenely expensive packages for those with vast amounts of money and not too much sense.Also the parterning of Adretti and Cadillac seems odd.Viewed from a point between Canada and Mexico and bordered by two oceans,this might all seem like a logical progression.From where I sit,I wonder why they are focusing on the world's second largest market and not going for more Chinese engagement.I fully expect six of the largest ten car companies globally to be Chinese within ten years and the Americans have been on the slide for decades.GM abandoned Europe and Australia so what are they seeking to promote in these places?It might not have occurred to the bigwigs in Detroit that their behemoths aren't suited to places with small streets and fuel that costs a huge amount more,relative to the local income,than the norms they are accustomed to.In both these instances,I think we are witnessing a culture clash and there may be some adjustments required.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 13:15 (Ref:4139339)   #56
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Sounds like Vegas is only doing the same as Miami then?

I suspect Andretti getting GM 'on board' is about having OEM involvement to grease the wheels to entry, with not too much more than that.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 13:45 (Ref:4139346)   #57
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Willing to be convinced otherwise, but what is the value of a manu coming in if they plan on just using re badged engines and probably gonna buy whatever else they can as well?

Increasing their advertising reach without making any significant material contributions to the sport doesn’t add that much value for us fans does it?

For example, don’t get the sense that Alfa or AM are particularly loved teams so why would a caddy backed team get the love?
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 15:00 (Ref:4139368)   #58
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Increasing their advertising reach without making any significant material contributions to the sport doesn’t add that much value for us fans does it?
I am commenting on this first, as IMHO, this is the core of your comment and also in my opinion answers your own question. Outside of maybe Ferrari in which F1 competition is deeply in it's DNA, frankly F1 is a marketing exercise for all manufactures.
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Willing to be convinced otherwise, but what is the value of a manu coming in if they plan on just using re badged engines and probably gonna buy whatever else they can as well?

For example, don’t get the sense that Alfa or AM are particularly loved teams so why would a caddy backed team get the love?
So the teams and even the racing departments in each manufacture really care about racing. But otherwise it is about marketing. And frankly "value for fans" is of little concern, or only from the perspective of keeping F1 "health" and "valuable" from a marketing perspective. And if you ARE a fan of the Alfa or AM marque, you probably will care for the F1 teams even if some fans might look down their noses at "rebadged teams"

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On a slightly different note,I can't help thinking that the American influence is at risk of misfiring.I have read reports of the Las Vegas event and the resort/hotels offering obscenely expensive packages for those with vast amounts of money and not too much sense.
Did anyone expect Vegas F1 to be cheap? I fully expected it to target high rollers.

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Also the parterning of Adretti and Cadillac seems odd.Viewed from a point between Canada and Mexico and bordered by two oceans,this might all seem like a logical progression.From where I sit,I wonder why they are focusing on the world's second largest market and not going for more Chinese engagement.I fully expect six of the largest ten car companies globally to be Chinese within ten years and the Americans have been on the slide for decades.GM abandoned Europe and Australia so what are they seeking to promote in these places?
Who is "they" in this? From an Andretti/US market perspective, this makes a bunch of sense (as you say). If "they" is broadly "F1" (FIA and Liberty). I understand your points about China. I truly don't know the answer to this question as I don't follow the this space, but have Chinese auto manufactures penetrated much outside of the Asian market? I don't see or hear about it. I can imagine a Chinese manufacture using F1 as marketing exercise (like GM is probably doing). But I just don't see one jumping in as full manufacture like Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. Lastly, while the Chinese market might be huge, does it even really care or want F1 right now? Does F1 association help any of those manufactures in the markets they are targeting today? I tend to think at this moment "no". If motorsports takes off in China then maybe. OR if a Chinese manufacture makes a BIG push in other large markets (America or European) where being associated with F1 can add some polish to their name, then "yes". I know there is a chicken and the egg situation. No doubt Zhou is helping increase popularity, but IMHO, China doesn't need or want F1 right now.

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Old 9 Jan 2023, 16:13 (Ref:4139378)   #59
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Just a thought but as 'Lotus' is now Chinese owned, maybe they'll come back?
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 16:37 (Ref:4139380)   #60
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According to both Autosport.com and Motorsport.com, there is something of a pushback against Andretti/GM:


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...lans/10418569/
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 17:15 (Ref:4139391)   #61
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According to both Autosport.com and Motorsport.com, there is something of a pushback against Andretti/GM:


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...lans/10418569/
I have to wonder exactly what scenarios (within the current $200M anti-dissolution fee) might the existing teams "welcome" ANY new entry!

I really just don't see them liking any new team showing up. They will nitpick reasons to object.

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Old 9 Jan 2023, 17:15 (Ref:4139392)   #62
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According to both Autosport.com and Motorsport.com, there is something of a pushback against Andretti/GM
Minor point, but I just wonder, do you realise these are basically the same site, just accessed differently?
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 17:36 (Ref:4139399)   #63
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Who is "they" in this? From an Andretti/US market perspective, this makes a bunch of sense (as you say). If "they" is broadly "F1" (FIA and Liberty). I understand your points about China. I truly don't know the answer to this question as I don't follow the this space, but have Chinese auto manufactures penetrated much outside of the Asian market? I don't see or hear about it. I can imagine a Chinese manufacture using F1 as marketing exercise (like GM is probably doing). But I just don't see one jumping in as full manufacture like Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. Lastly, while the Chinese market might be huge, does it even really care or want F1 right now? Does F1 association help any of those manufactures in the markets they are targeting today? I tend to think at this moment "no". If motorsports takes off in China then maybe. OR if a Chinese manufacture makes a BIG push in other large markets (America or European) where being associated with F1 can add some polish to their name, then "yes". I know there is a chicken and the egg situation. No doubt Zhou is helping increase popularity, but IMHO, China doesn't need or want F1 right now.

Richard

Let me add this then;MG has been a Chinese owned brand for several years,as has Volvo and more recently Lotus.The largest individual shareholding in Daimler-Benz is held by the Chinese group that owns the last two.
A couple of weeks ago I was prompted to seek out information about the market shares of various electric car producers and was quite surprised to learn that several companies of which I had never heard were achieving growth rates of a couple of hundred percent or more within the sector.If anybody has the interest,there are some statistics here : https://insideevs.com/news/625651/gl...s-october2022/ .Few of the companies mentioned were familiar names.
Why might this be relevant?Well in a little over seven years I won't be able to buy an IC engined car from a dealer and not too long after nor will anybody else in Europe.GM themselves will cease to offer IC vehicles in their home market.So why they chose to partner with Andretti for the new venture is a mystery to me.Particularly when the brand they promote isn't at the top of the wish list of those of us who live in places where the roads are of modest size and fuel is horrendously expensive by American standards and we have no dealer network for a GM brand.


I would really like to see the Andretti project move forward,I'm just baffled by the brand.I would really like to see a grid of 26 respectable cars as soon as can be arranged.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 17:39 (Ref:4139400)   #64
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FIA championship. It has the say over how many and who
Liberty Media and the 10 current entrants are all business partners

In my book that means sport will rule over business or business will screw the sport

I think Andretti should be welcomed along with another team . They will have to earn their slice of the cake which is fair. Just get on with it. I think Andretti has bolted a bit soon with its announcements but that's clearly a sign of determination and frustration and probably rattled those sat on a safe full of cash . Anyone with an ounce of competition enters f1 to win . I dont get these entrants already in who say we want to compete .those that want to win, will.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 17:51 (Ref:4139401)   #65
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Let me add this then;MG has been a Chinese owned brand for several years,as has Volvo and more recently Lotus.The largest individual shareholding in Daimler-Benz is held by the Chinese group that owns the last two.
A couple of weeks ago I was prompted to seek out information about the market shares of various electric car producers and was quite surprised to learn that several companies of which I had never heard were achieving growth rates of a couple of hundred percent or more within the sector.If anybody has the interest,there are some statistics here : https://insideevs.com/news/625651/gl...s-october2022/ .Few of the companies mentioned were familiar names.
Why might this be relevant?Well in a little over seven years I won't be able to buy an IC engined car from a dealer and not too long after nor will anybody else in Europe.GM themselves will cease to offer IC vehicles in their home market.So why they chose to partner with Andretti for the new venture is a mystery to me.Particularly when the brand they promote isn't at the top of the wish list of those of us who live in places where the roads are of modest size and fuel is horrendously expensive by American standards and we have no dealer network for a GM brand.
If I were an auto executive thinking of going in to F1 and you pitched the above to me, I would say there is nearly zero reason to be in F1. The implication that F1 is significantly out of step with their future. Maybe Chinese manufactures see it the same way. Also, if you are seeing massive growth rates without a large F1 sized marketing effort. Why spend the money on F1?

As to GM, I believe they consider Cadillac to be their "luxury" or "performance" brand. So it matches better with F1. We also don't know how much money GM is potentially putting up. It might be a good bit or it might not be much.

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Old 9 Jan 2023, 19:30 (Ref:4139424)   #66
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I have to wonder exactly what scenarios (within the current $200M anti-dissolution fee) might the existing teams "welcome" ANY new entry!

I really just don't see them liking any new team showing up. They will nitpick reasons to object.
According to the linked article, it seems that "within the current $200M anti-dissolution fee" is a lot of the problem as both FOM and the teams believe that the sport is worth much more than that now and $500-$600 mill would be more appropriate.

May simply be a question of negotiation but clearly it would make a significant difference to Andretti's budget.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 21:41 (Ref:4139436)   #67
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We also don't know how much money GM is potentially putting up. It might be a good bit or it might not be much.
so for sure i am assuming they are putting in as little as possible...which might explain why im on the side i am on!

no doubt any manu can in come and out as they please, so the other assumption i am operating under is that the more money an manu invests the longer they are likely to remain in.

so naturally im inclined to take issue that a brand can come in just for a few years while they spin the IPO machine (like Alfa) and making the minimum amount of investment before leaving. particularly if they dont leave the team in a better place after leaving...and no one seems to leave Sauber in a better position.

but this is the way it has always been like this so why the issue now?

to that i would say with the new set of prize money distribution, TV revenue sharing, and a budget cap which tremendously lowers costs finally puts the sport in a position where it can legitimately support 10 fully competitive (or least properly funded) teams.

just mu opinion but now that the potential exists for an overall healthier grid, i would like to see a healthy 10 teams before letting in lightly funded back markers.

Andretti is a great name though so maybe being harsh.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 22:37 (Ref:4139441)   #68
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FIA championship. It has the say over how many and who
Liberty Media and the 10 current entrants are all business partners
Are you sure about that?

The FIA took a payment to be able to officiate. They know the only other option was FOM would get somebody else to do it.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 22:53 (Ref:4139442)   #69
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We also don't know how much money GM is potentially putting up. It might be a good bit or it might not be much.

Richard
Am I too cynical here?
Andretti on their own were told go away unless you've got a manufacturer to bring to the party
Cadillac is just a trojan horse - probably have had to pay more to put stickers on the Haas


crazy that a name/team like Andretti would be turned down in the first place if you ask me, so totally understand the ploy
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 00:12 (Ref:4139448)   #70
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It's the FIA Formula 1 World Championship.

So if the FIA tells the current teams and prospective ones to sign up for the 2026 season..

I suspect most of them would regardless of the political and financial posturing.

Reckon the FIA would quickly be oversubscribed with quality outfits will have to turn some away, even one or two existing entrants.

That would be very interesting.
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 05:47 (Ref:4139501)   #71
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Are you sure about that?

The FIA took a payment to be able to officiate. They know the only other option was FOM would get somebody else to do it.
Yes - that is why the Concorde agreement is between the FIA and the competitors.

It is also the reason that the FIA was able to stipulate / prevent Russian and Belarussian competition in motorsport (including F1).

A lot of discussion regarding the option available to the teams if the FIA started to move away from the Concorde agreement was covered in FTOTP - https://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=109
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 06:42 (Ref:4139502)   #72
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It's the FIA Formula 1 World Championship.

So if the FIA tells the current teams and prospective ones to sign up for the 2026 season..

I suspect most of them would regardless of the political and financial posturing.

Reckon the FIA would quickly be oversubscribed with quality outfits will have to turn some away, even one or two existing entrants.

That would be very interesting.
Only really seen Andretti put their hands up to enter the series so far. Yet to hear noises from anymore prospective teams.

The existing teams need to just accept possible new teams in, instead of trying to pushback against them
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 06:47 (Ref:4139506)   #73
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Only really seen Andretti put their hands up to enter the series so far. Yet to hear noises from anymore prospective teams.
Porsche is still declaring an intent to join the grid.

Panthera Asia F1 is another that has outlined plans for a few years now, and is targeting 2026.
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 07:57 (Ref:4139523)   #74
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Yes - that is why the Concorde agreement is between the FIA and the competitors.

It is also the reason that the FIA was able to stipulate / prevent Russian and Belarussian competition in motorsport (including F1).

A lot of discussion regarding the option available to the teams if the FIA started to move away from the Concorde agreement was covered in FTOTP - https://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=109
Yes - the FIA know well they are effectively passengers.

They get paid to be allowed to wave their flags and feel important but are very much the junior partner in the FOM, constructors, FIA triumvirate.
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Old 10 Jan 2023, 09:26 (Ref:4139540)   #75
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
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Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Yes - the FIA know well they are effectively passengers.

They get paid to be allowed to wave their flags and feel important but are very much the junior partner in the FOM, constructors, FIA triumvirate.

I'm pretty sure the FIA don't see it that way.Its their championship and they offloaded the day to day running of it.
P38 in workshop is offline  
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