[ELMS] ELMS (was LMS) 2012 discussion

[AndrewF31]

Even all these proposals keep forgetting that ELMS can't be a 3-race season. They'll always have 1/2 extra events. And apart from Paul Ricard being early season and great to test cars, like we saw last year, the last race, Estoril, was a disaster. And it's not just because they came to Portugal. I'm not sure if Catalunya would have done better.

Anyways, I've never understood the split of the races, but I think in the case of ALMS, the combo races are an issue as we saw last year, since ALMS still has a fairly large grid.

Plus, noone has put any Middle East rounds in their schedules. Makes no sense. There and China is where the money is right now, like it or not, and while FIA is in the game, they'll always be trying to overload on races in those regions. As dull and stupid it seems, I'm sure those rounds are not only paying for themselves but may be balancing out the deficits created by the European rounds. Lets not forget South America too.

[pach233]

I think the idea presented forth by Fogelhund is being misinterpreted. Maybe I can help clarify how the WEC P1 only would work. Let's assume AsLMS actually gets off the ground and we have 3 manufacturers entered (Porsche, Audi, and Toyota) We'll say ALMS has 10 events, ELMS 5 events, and AsLMS 4 events. Each of the three manufacturers would have to commit to one of the three continental championships. In our example let's say Audi commits to the ALMS, Porsche to ELMS and Toyota to AsLMS. The ALMS schedule would look something like this.

1. Sebring (All 3 manufacturers + regular ALMS field)
2. LB (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
3. Laguna (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
4. Lime Rock (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
5. Mosport (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
6. Mid-Ohio (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
7. Road America (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
8. Baltimore (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
9. VIR (Regular ALMS field including Audi)
10. PLM (All 3 manufacturers + regular ALMS field)

ELMS maybe something like this:

1. Paul Ricard (regular ELMS field including Porsche)
2. Monza (regular ELMS field including Porsche)
3. Spa (all 3 manufacturers + regular ELMS field)
4. Nurburgring (regular ELMS field including Portsche
4. Silverstone (all 3 manufacturers + ELMS field)

AsLMS

1. Suzuka (regular AsLMS field including Toyota)
2. Shanghai (regular AsLMS field including Toyota)
3. Fuji (all 3 manufacturers + regular AsLMS field)
4. Zhuhai (all 3 manufacturers + regular AsLMS field)

WEC would be Sebring, Spa, LeMans (points for LMP1 WEC entries only, open invites for every one else) Silverstone, PLM, Fuji and Zhuhai.

Of course you can mess with the schedules as you like but the premise remains the same. The continental championships are kept stronger, the manufacturers have the prestige of a world championship. There may be years where 2 manuf. will go to one series and one to another. Or maybe all 3 will compete in the same continental championship. But in the overall picture, a structure like this would work to keep the entire sport healthy.

[kober]

Originally Posted by pach233

There may be years where 2 manuf. will go to one series and one to another. Or maybe all 3 will compete in the same continental championship. But in the overall picture, a structure like this would work to keep the entire sport healthy.

Why force the WEC-entrants to race at one of the regional series? I think that flying to eight/ten races all round the world is enough. And at the same time, it would allow non-WEC-entrants to fight for the overall win at the non-WEC races, when the LMP1 manufacturers wouldn't be present.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by kober

Why force the WEC-entrants to race at one of the regional series? I think that flying to eight/ten races all round the world is enough.

Strengthen the regional series, and allow them to build the series, the coverage and grow the brand. You cannot do that with Cytosport and Dyson, or a bunch of no name LMP2 entrants.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Strengthen the regional series, and allow them to build the series, the coverage and grow the brand. You cannot do that with Cytosport and Dyson, or a bunch of no name LMP2 entrants.

before this year the ILMC was there to "strenghten" the national series with joined ilmc event at R.A. and sebring. little has changed since then. The gt class is still awesome, and the lmp car counts are still crap (partly because audi team na and porsche stopped their factory program). The tv deal is still awesome. imho, the ALMS situation has nothing to do with how the wec is run, its simply a lack of interest in this kind of racing in NA (except for the gt class of course), and maybe the crap economical situation. There is simply no interest from teams and american chassis suppliers in lmp categories and racing at le mans (well maybe there is from teams but not from their sponsors - Dyson team). In NA there is Nascar, a ****load of other stockcar championships and indycar and thats it. It looks like there is almost no room for anything else to exist.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Lets not throw our dummies outta the pram too soon , isnt that what we all wanted in the first place , a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP !!!

hehe not me sorry. I prefer the ILMC formula, a 7-8 rounds calendar with top ALMS and ELMS rounds (Sebring, Spa, Silverstone, Road Atlanta...)

Fogelhund is right, the ACO is fully blind insisting on that rubbish Asian LMS. That series won't work, it failed three times already so I don't expect any good from the 2013 try.

[pedrocor]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

hehe not me sorry. I prefer the ILMC formula, a 7-8 rounds calendar with top ALMS and ELMS rounds (Sebring, Spa, Silverstone, Road Atlanta...)

Fogelhund is right, the ACO is fully blind insisting on that rubbish Asian LMS. That series won't work, it failed three times already so I don't expect any good from the 2013 try.

Even worst in 2013, as it's mandatory an Asian driver per car...

Talking about racial profiling

[KA]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Strengthen the regional series, and allow them to build the series, the coverage and grow the brand. You cannot do that with Cytosport and Dyson, or a bunch of no name LMP2 entrants.

I'm really playing devil's advocate a bit here, but taking Pach233's hypothetical schedule, with Audi, Toyota and Porsche basically opting to avoid each other outside ofthe WEC races by each running in a separate regional series, does this actually strengthen the regional series?
Is it any easier to grow the brand for the ALMS if it's basically a series of Audi demonstration runs with Cytosport and Dyson fighting over 3rd place a couple of laps down?

Worse, suppose two- or all - of the manufacturers opt for the same regional series- that series might well benefit, but the others are left right back where they are now....

Potentially even worse, by trying to dictate that each manufacturer basically fights on two fronts by mandating that they run a full regional series season, plus the WEC-counting rounds of the other series, maybe you drive that manufacturer into deciding to spend their motorsport budget somewhere else entirely....?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by KA

I'm really playing devil's advocate a bit here, but taking Pach233's hypothetical schedule, with Audi, Toyota and Porsche basically opting to avoid each other outside ofthe WEC races by each running in a separate regional series, does this actually strengthen the regional series?
Is it any easier to grow the brand for the ALMS if it's basically a series of Audi demonstration runs with Cytosport and Dyson fighting over 3rd place a couple of laps down?

Worse, suppose two- or all - of the manufacturers opt for the same regional series- that series might well benefit, but the others are left right back where they are now....

Potentially even worse, by trying to dictate that each manufacturer basically fights on two fronts by mandating that they run a full regional series season, plus the WEC-counting rounds of the other series, maybe you drive that manufacturer into deciding to spend their motorsport budget somewhere else entirely....?

A single manufacturer in the ALMS/ELMS is preferable to none, just look back at the Audi R8's. The fan base, press and sponsorship money will all grow, only with at least one manufacturer in the top class. Without them, you basically have white label cars at the front, which aren't of any interest to anyone but us anoraks.

As far as costs are concerned, it is always going to be about costs vs. perceived value. At the moment the value of competing in the ELMS is next to nothing (if they allowed P1 manufacturers), and the ALMS has eroded, and will continue to get worse. The LM brand needs greater exposure, so this is a bit of a chicken vs. the egg thing. If the manufacturers work with the LM brand, they can help build it to the point where not only does it provide good ROI to them, but will attract others, which will further increase the exposure of the brand. Of course if the manufacturer is only interested in their own short-term benefit, at the expense of the LM brand..... They have to start thinking about long-term, not pandering to short-term interests... how did that work out with Peugeot this year?

Originally Posted by lms

The tv deal is still awesome. imho, the ALMS situation has nothing to do with how the wec is run, its simply a lack of interest in this kind of racing in NA .

The TV deal is mostly terrible, from a sponsors perspective.

The ALMS absolutely is tied to ILMC and now WEC. The way they have been run is as competitors to each other, eliminating the possibility of manufacturers being involved in the regional series... to date.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Other point, race format. The 6h one proved to be a big failure for both fans and media coverage with this very poor grid. IMO, 3 Hours or 500km events would be far better.

[MagVanisher]

Maybe the ACO should invite manufacturers and provide engines for the LMP class and brand them as "Ford/Lola" or "Nissan/Oreca" just like in Grand-Am.

But that too won't work unless manufacturers can make their own LMP1 car and compete first at a regional series before moving up to WEC when a manufacturer is placed first on their respective regional series. (eg: Chevrolet being 1st at ALMS' LMP1 class, which is then move up to WEC) Kinda like the Champions' League.

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Other point, race format. The 6h one proved to be a big failure for both fans and media coverage with this very poor grid. IMO, 3 Hours or 500km events would be far better.

Hmm, you're right about that suggestion. That way, there would be more races if they go up to three hours of racing.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Maybe the ACO should invite manufacturers and provide engines for the LMP class and brand them as "Ford/Lola" or "Nissan/Oreca" just like in Grand-Am.

How is that working for Grand-Am? In my opinion, if it isn't Audi, Porsche, Toyota etc. it isn't going to capture the imagination.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Even all these proposals keep forgetting that ELMS can't be a 3-race season. They'll always have 1/2 extra events. And apart from Paul Ricard being early season and great to test cars, like we saw last year, the last race, Estoril, was a disaster. And it's not just because they came to Portugal. I'm not sure if Catalunya would have done better.

Anyways, I've never understood the split of the races, but I think in the case of ALMS, the combo races are an issue as we saw last year, since ALMS still has a fairly large grid.

Plus, noone has put any Middle East rounds in their schedules. Makes no sense. There and China is where the money is right now, like it or not, and while FIA is in the game, they'll always be trying to overload on races in those regions. As dull and stupid it seems, I'm sure those rounds are not only paying for themselves but may be balancing out the deficits created by the European rounds. Lets not forget South America too.

If the WEC becomes only for LMP1s, then all those LMP2s and GTEs would return to the ELMS. ELMS grids would increase and it could easily have a 5-race schedule. Say Paul Ricard, Monza, Spa, Brno, Silverstone with WEC support at Spa and Silverstone.

The ALMS does have a fairly large grid but only LMP1s are being added at Sebring and Petit Le Mans. The grids would be 50 cars at the most.

You're right, nobody has added any Middle East or South America rounds. Maybe the WEC could make an invitational round where any cars from the ALMS and ELMS are welcome to join and winners get an auto-invite to Le Mans.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

hehe not me sorry. I prefer the ILMC formula, a 7-8 rounds calendar with top ALMS and ELMS rounds (Sebring, Spa, Silverstone, Road Atlanta...)

Whats the differance between the WEC and ILMC ?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Whats the differance between the WEC and ILMC ?

Apart from Le Mans and Zhuhai, every ILMC round was shared with either LMS or ALMS. The only shared round in the WEC this year was Sebring.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Fogelhund is right, the ACO is fully blind insisting on that rubbish Asian LMS. That series won't work, it failed three times already so I don't expect any good from the 2013 try.

Where is jag to tell us that this is the future of motor racing?

[old man]

I have said in similar discussions before that the LM 24 is. or was before recent changes, the real World Championship in Sports/GT racing and the schedule as shown by patch233 is what I would like to see with the top runners in each class being guaranteed an entry to what would become, indeed was, the "Final".

Very few entrants in this category of racing are backed by global companies, true, the likes of Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, AM and so on are world wide companies with markets to support in each of the regions but they could do this by regional entries and select the best for the Final. The ACO will always be a law unto itself and accept additional entries alongside the qualifiers and the situation we had in the early 2000s was fine, a good regional team got the accolade of the big race.

I am an advocate of a "World Champion" as it makes marketing sense for the manufacturers and sponsors concerned but it does not have to be a series, the World Championship in football (soccer to the ALMS people) is not a league it is a tournament for which a team has to qualify as in many team sports. We could do it this way and declare the winners of the classes the Champions

While I am writing, I would abolish the GTE am and pro classes, just GTE is all we need. A team with two gents and a pro can, and indeed has proved that they can compete with an all pro line up but even if the factory drivers win we all know they are factory drivers and accept good performances by the gentlemen that have aways been the lifeblood of GT racing. A three class race at Le Mans is easier for the spectators and commentators to understand, LMP1 for the big hitters and advanced technology, LMP2 for those now involved and GTE for the road based cars is enough

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by old man

A three class race at Le Mans is easier for the spectators and commentators to understand

Why not just go all the way and have two, Prototypes and GT?

[old man]

Good question but sadly if Audi, Porsche and any other top factories enter then the private teams that make up the bulk of the LMP field will struggle to compete, leaving them LMP2 will give them an incentive.

I know I have said the opposite for GTE but those are road car based and not as unequal as the LMPs IMO

[Fogelhund]

I don't really care about the additional class with GTE Pro and GTE Am. The GTE Am category is really for the entrants, and I doubt that the average fan even knows, or cares about the distinction. I would guess that the hardcore fan just doesn't care about the Am class either. It attracts additional entrants, for the hopes of winning a trophy... big deal.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Why not just go all the way and have two, Prototypes and GT?

If you make WEC as a two-class series, most of the privateers will not be happy when works teams are at the podium while the rest are either 4th or dead last.

Maybe you should add sub-classes, distinguishing between factory teams and privateers.

[kober]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Maybe you should add sub-classes, distinguishing between factory teams and privateers.

Yeah, lets called them LMP1, GTE-Pro and LMP2, GTE-Am respectively

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by kober

Yeah, lets called them LMP1, GTE-Pro and LMP2, GTE-Am respectively

[Deleted]

LMP1 Privateer Trophy exists as well... maybe we should add LMP2 Scott Tucker Award and GTE/AM Best French Team too, you know to assure everyones happiness

[kyoung]

Seriously though, it always comes full circle, classes for Pro and Am. Why don’t they just have support races for the Am drivers, a kind of minor league with opportunity to move to the big league if they are eventually good enough? The Am guys can use the hand me down cars from the previous seasons and the Pro guys won’t have to dodge the bottom scrappers when they make bone headed moves. Hell, do away with the idiotic drivers rating system and have a sub Am series support race for the true rookies and beginners. No Pro/Am classes, separate Pro/Am races; Pro>Am>Rookie.