1985 DTM - rare footage to discuss

[chunterer]

I regularly receive email newsletters from motorsport-dvd in Germany which has produced some extremely rare footage of German motorsport and some European Group A stuff in the past. We have mentioned it in some other threads before.

Latest releases are 2 DVD's from what appears to be the early season of the 1985 German Group A series and some interesting cars appear in the footage.

This is what I could make out from the clips on the website.

Klaus Ludwig in a plain white Sierra XR4Ti? Is this an Eggenberger car? I can't recall Eggenberger entering ETC til much later in the season so this car must've been the only one other than Rouse's competing from this early in the year?

Several Volvo 240T's I guess Stureson and Peggan Andersson are two?

The 2 Sinzinger Rover Vitesses.

At least 2 Camaro's presumably Peter John and Roland Asch but I think I saw a 3rd car?

A phalanx of 635's, but I can only really make out Strycek and Grohs?

2 Mustang's including what looks like a relieveried ex Belga Woodman car (blue had replaced the red on that livery by looks of it).

Winni Vogt's 325i

2 Lui sponsored GTV6's... Oberndorfer and Klammer? plus a plain red 3rd car....

A red Opel Monza....

A plain white Capri....

A plain white Benz 190/16v

There's also an Escort RST and the Massa backed Metro Turbo briefly and arnage of small class cars including Golf's and Fiat Ritmo's!

Sorry I can't link for those of you who fancy a look (Jesper and KA undoubtedly!) but any further info on whose these cars were?

[KA]

Yes, the Motorsport-DVD stuff looks really good- they've got a few clips on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/VFMCMedia#p/u/6/uS0K1qx0ObI

HWRT and Ringhausen both ran XR4Ti's in 1985- Ludwig was with Ringhausen and did the last few rounds- winning most of them. Klaus Niedzwiedz and Manuel Reuter ran with HWRT- Jorg van Ommen popped up in one as well I think

Volvos were Stureson (who won the title) and Andersson. I think Peter Kroeber (ISA) and Heinz-Friedrich Peil (Kissling- IIRC curiously the Kissling car used a 4-door shell) were the other regular Volvos.

Think the blue/white Mustang was Reinhold Gropper, and the red GTV6 might be Michael Kopf or Werner Busch. The white Merc 190 is probably Leopold Gallina.

Escort RS Turbos were Manfred Burkhard (HWRT) and Beate Nodes (GRAB)- IIRC the Nodes car still exists in Holland.

Frank de Jong has got the '85 results up, and pics from Zolder and the 'Ring
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...985%20DPM.html

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...alenpokal.html
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...%20Sprint.html

[Al Weyman]

What a shame it was allowed to degenrate into what we have today. Come to Rockingham Sunday and you may see something akin to that at the CTCRC meeting.

[KA]

Definitely- I saw DTM the first time it visited Donington about 1990/91, and a couple more times up to about the mid-90's, and really enjoyed it.

I've never been able to muster the enthusiasm to go and watch it when it's visited the UK in its' current form.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Definitely- I saw DTM the first time it visited Donington about 1990/91, and a couple more times up to about the mid-90's, and really enjoyed it.

I've never been able to muster the enthusiasm to go and watch it when it's visited the UK in its' current form.

Same here!!

When it was still related to Group A (uncomparable as a set of touring car reg's imo) it was very very good and i'll admit that the mid 90's ITC verison had its merits but nowadays it's not even as good as the Group 5 stuff, what do you reckon?

Going back to your great response about who's and what's, I'm very interested in how a 4 door Volvo shell came into existence....

If the car was homologated as a 2-door (and as we know that in itself allegedly is dubious...) how did a 4-door get to run legitimately?

The other thing I want to quickly mention is how gorgeous the red Monza sounds in the clip. Now I never had the opportunity to hear Tony Lanfranchi's here in the 1983 BTCC (it was year I missed trackside altogether as a lad) but it is a real full blooded V6 song and it is a shame that Group A came about too late into this cars production life otherwise it would probably had been a decent steed in the late 70's, early 80's.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Going back to your great response about who's and what's, I'm very interested in how a 4 door Volvo shell came into existence....

If the car was homologated as a 2-door (and as we know that in itself allegedly is dubious...) how did a 4-door get to run legitimately?

There was a mention of this early in the Group A Volvo thread- apparently it was built in-house by Kissling and Heinz-Friedrich Peil, and was very much a private effort- they apparently used a 4-door shell because they had trouble getting a 2-door...
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=105300&page=2
Must admit I'm curious about the homologation question though- as DPM/DTM adapted the Group A rulebook a bit (weight limits etc) did it run under some kind of dispensation, or was the 4-door an option on the homologation papers? Did the Kissling car ever do the German ETC rounds?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The other thing I want to quickly mention is how gorgeous the red Monza sounds in the clip. Now I never had the opportunity to hear Tony Lanfranchi's here in the 1983 BTCC (it was year I missed trackside altogether as a lad) but it is a real full blooded V6 song and it is a shame that Group A came about too late into this cars production life otherwise it would probably had been a decent steed in the late 70's, early 80's.

I always liked the Monza as well (my dad had been very much a Vauxhall man when it came to cars, so I always tended to support the GM teams where they appeared), though I never saw the Lanfranchi car either- just the prodsaloons.

As you say, it was a car that got a bit left behind in Group A (IIRC, when GM Dealer Sport pulled the plug on their BTCC entry one of the reasons given was the inability to find enough bhp to make the car competitive)

[Jesper OH]

Interesting DVDs. Those 1984-1987 years are my favorite DTM seasons because of the diversity and the mainly privateer entries.

The car that makes it for me in the 1985 preview is the Peter John Camaro - big, noisy and all over the place! He even lead the 1985 standings in the early stages of the year.

Jesper

[chunterer]

Hmmm, that model of Camaro interests me because it wasn't the current Camaro model/shape?

How come this was run instead of the, at the time, sale model?

I can only assume the current car wasn't homologated, yet the old shape definitely was as it had been running since Group A began in 1982.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hmmm, that model of Camaro interests me because it wasn't the current Camaro model/shape?

How come this was run instead of the, at the time, sale model?

I can only assume the current car wasn't homologated, yet the old shape definitely was as it had been running since Group A began in 1982.

You're quite right about the Camaros raced by John and others at the time. This is the second generation car in production from 1970 to 1981, I believe. The third generation car had been homologated since 1984, but had a 5005 cc engine compared to the 5.7 of the older car. Thus they would have ended up in the same weight bracket over 5000 cc. I don't know if the older car would have had any special bits homologated over 15 years of competition in European group 1 and A racing, while the never car might have had less so.

Jesper

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

I always liked the Monza as well (my dad had been very much a Vauxhall man when it came to cars, so I always tended to support the GM teams where they appeared), though I never saw the Lanfranchi car either- just the prodsaloons.

As you say, it was a car that got a bit left behind in Group A (IIRC, when GM Dealer Sport pulled the plug on their BTCC entry one of the reasons given was the inability to find enough bhp to make the car competitive)

It seemed to be a handy midfield runner in DTM in these clips, but how much that was aided by weight penalties to other cars I don't know?

As it was introduced in about 1977/78 time, I did wonder why it never ran in the BTCC against the Capris and Rovers in G1. GMDS obviously had a rally programme but I also wonder whether it's weight went against it in both G1 and GA? Seemed to go fine in prodsaloons.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

As it was introduced in about 1977/78 time, I did wonder why it never ran in the BTCC against the Capris and Rovers in G1. GMDS obviously had a rally programme but I also wonder whether it's weight went against it in both G1 and GA? Seemed to go fine in prodsaloons.

Wasn't the BTCC still subject to the maximum engine size limit of around 3.5/3.6 litres that was imposed in the 70's to keep the American cars out?
(No over 3-litre class from 1976 according to Frank de Jong http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...76%20BSCC.html though the top class limit was obviously raised over the 3.0 mark by the time Rover appeared on the scene in 1980)

IIRC it wasn't lifted until about 1987, enabling Mike O'Brien to run the ex-Grice Holden (IIRC, there may have rumours in Autosport that Grice had supposedly talked to the BTCC organisers about making a BTCC appearance at the British GP meeting during his European season the year before, but they wouldn't lift the capacity limit to allow it)

Pretty sure it was in place during the later G1 and early Gp A years- without it, we might have seen the Mustang that CC Motorsport used in occasional 1983 ETC rounds running in the BTCC as well, and it wouldn't have surprised me that much if TWR might even have occasionally wheeled an XJS out at a GP support or other high-profile meeting

[Spen Again]

Really interesting discussion there, totally agree with your comments about Group-A being superb and current DTM not being interesting. Chunterer, do you own any of the DVD's from dvd-motorsport? i get release updates from their YouTube channel but have not bought any films yet, seem expensive for 1race films. You taken the plunge yet?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Wasn't the BTCC still subject to the maximum engine size limit of around 3.5/3.6 litres that was imposed in the 70's to keep the American cars out?

Pretty sure it was in place during the later G1 and early Gp A years- without it, we might have seen the Mustang that CC Motorsport used in occasional 1983 ETC rounds running in the BTCC as well, and it wouldn't have surprised me that much if TWR might even have occasionally wheeled an XJS out at a GP support or other high-profile meeting

Indeed that is all spot on but the Monza/Senator/Royale based models were sold in 2.8 or 3-litre guises which would've made it eligible for Class A here I would've thought?

spenagain, I have bought a few of these german releases (the season reviews from 88-90 are very good, but might be a different firm?) and bought the 86 and 87 uncuts but they are very atmospheric and unless you know your entires from the years a bit tricky to work out what's going on! Still worth a punt though due to the paucity of Group A stuff about.

I'm assuming the firm will continue going backwards in time and we'll soon have 83 and 84 DPM material to look at.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

You're quite right about the Camaros raced by John and others at the time. This is the second generation car in production from 1970 to 1981, I believe. The third generation car had been homologated since 1984, but had a 5005 cc engine compared to the 5.7 of the older car. Thus they would have ended up in the same weight bracket over 5000 cc. I don't know if the older car would have had any special bits homologated over 15 years of competition in European group 1 and A racing, while the never car might have had less so.

Jesper

Crikey that's some touring car racing life that model had now you mention it!

Started in the late 60's in ETC and G2 competition and continued through the 70's in Gr1 and then to the mid 80's GrA in the DPM/DTM!!!

Yes as you suggest when considering the difference in engine size between the earlier and later model Camaro, a 5.0 would surely be less potent than a fully sorted 5.7 lump when up against tools like the BMW 635, Jaguar and Rover etc that were far better suited for the task in the first place!

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

There was a mention of this early in the Group A Volvo thread- apparently it was built in-house by Kissling and Heinz-Friedrich Peil, and was very much a private effort- they apparently used a 4-door shell because they had trouble getting a 2-door...
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=105300&page=2
Must admit I'm curious about the homologation question though- as DPM/DTM adapted the Group A rulebook a bit (weight limits etc) did it run under some kind of dispensation, or was the 4-door an option on the homologation papers? Did the Kissling car ever do the German ETC rounds?

Come to think about it, I'm not sure that a 2-door 240 was in production much beyond the early 1980s. It was a bit weird that when Volvo was racing the 2-door 240 during the 1980s, all most all road going 240s were 4-doors.

Jesper

[chunterer]

The 242 2-door was being marketed in 1984, as i'm sure it was in the Observers pocket guide for that year?

I always recall that there was no mention of the 240 Turbo anywhere amongst Volvo sales literature, well not in the UK at least but then we know it wasn't marketed here, but a European and USA model?

[Frank de Jong]

Originally Posted by KA

There was a mention of this early in the Group A Volvo thread- apparently it was built in-house by Kissling and Heinz-Friedrich Peil, and was very much a private effort- they apparently used a 4-door shell because they had trouble getting a 2-door...
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=105300&page=2
Must admit I'm curious about the homologation question though- as DPM/DTM adapted the Group A rulebook a bit (weight limits etc) did it run under some kind of dispensation, or was the 4-door an option on the homologation papers? Did the Kissling car ever do the German ETC rounds?

Well, in fact homologation #5020 shows the Turbo Volvo group A in 4-door form, with the 2-door ars as variant, so it's the other way round. This homologation form shows all the goodies like the spoilers, water injection... and sunroof.
In Germany, IIRC someone put a "taxi" sign on the roof of the Peil car while it was on the grid...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

Well, in fact homologation #5020 shows the Turbo Volvo group A in 4-door form, with the 2-door ars as variant, so it's the other way round. This homologation form shows all the goodies like the spoilers, water injection... and sunroof.
In Germany, IIRC someone put a "taxi" sign on the roof of the Peil car while it was on the grid...

Thanks for that about the 4door Frank.

Hahahaha, they could only stick a taxi sign on the roof because there wasn't any Mercedes!

[RemyRS1600i]

Originally Posted by KA

Escort RS Turbos were Manfred Burkhard (HWRT) and Beate Nodes (GRAB)- IIRC the Nodes car still exists in Holland.

Thanks to this great footage, i now know that my car is the HWRT car.
I always thought it was the GRAB car, because of some old pictures that came with it.
Then it seems (and i always thought) it was one and the same car, owned by GRAB and then by HWRT.

But this footage showed there were two seperate cars, because apparantly BOTH cars raced in Siegerland.
There are some specific details at the HWRT car in the footage, which recognizes my car.

So this is the car, still existing in Holland.