[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Aysedasi]

I don't go with the 'as he should be' bit, unless he can finish the season with the kind of flourish with which he started it. I'm feeling that his time is coming to a close...

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Will admit to wanting to see Albon back in there with another shot.

I personally think it would be a very bad move. Anyone who takes that second seat risks being snuffed out by the Horner/Marko/Verstappen machine. He's better off staying where he is and pressing on with the Williams improvement...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't go with the 'as he should be' bit, unless he can finish the season with the kind of flourish with which he started it. I'm feeling that his time is coming to a close...

I personally think it would be a very bad move. Anyone who takes that second seat risks being snuffed out by the Horner/Marko/Verstappen machine. He's better off staying where he is and pressing on with the Williams improvement...

To a certain extent, that is what is happening to Perez, except he hasn't been completely snuffed out because RBR would like him to finish as runner up, which they just missed out on last year. They will keep him as long as they need him to fulfill his role, which is essentially as the number two driver.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't go with the 'as he should be' bit, unless he can finish the season with the kind of flourish with which he started it. I'm feeling that his time is coming to a close...



I personally think it would be a very bad move. Anyone who takes that second seat risks being snuffed out by the Horner/Marko/Verstappen machine. He's better off staying where he is and pressing on with the Williams improvement...

Pretty much my thinking on this subject too.
Ricciardo had as much F1 racimg experience as Lawson this year and overall I would venture the Kiwi did a better job with what he had.
Unless DR pulls something special out of the drawer in the last few rounds, I just don't see the value in running him next year..

[Skam85]

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/pe...bull/10537163/

Time to move on and accept Checo will be there in 2024 (for the start at least)

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Skam85

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/pe...bull/10537163/

Time to move on and accept Checo will be there in 2024 (for the start at least)

Absolutely.
His pace is fine.
Why do I say that? Because Max was consistently doing 1.40'1.41 over the second half of the race.
No one got anywhere near the pole times under 1.35 or Q3 times. Yuki did the fastest race lap and he wasn't in Q3.
The race was about conserving tyres,, and getting the car to the finish in good shape. Strategy.


If Red Bull want to get perez back to early season form then they need to be tailoring the set up for his car to be what is best for him, not trying to get him to match Max with Max's set ups.
Checo is perfectly capable of driving quick enough to win races, or second to Max, score podiums, etc, in a dominant car that is set up to suit his preferential style.
No driver drives consistently at or near the front in a car he doesn't have confidence in. Kimi, Massa, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton or max. Non of them do.
Pundits who are expecting Perez to do so is just insane.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Skam85

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/pe...bull/10537163/

Time to move on and accept Checo will be there in 2024 (for the start at least)

Agreed,

Its all a built up Media Train to railroad him out. Still holding strong in the standings.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/pe...bull/10537163/

Time to move on and accept Checo will be there in 2024 (for the start at least)

Honestly, as badly as he's doing, he's the best choice out of the ones RBR have deemed eligible for that seat.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Honestly, as badly as he's doing, he's the best choice out of the ones RBR have deemed eligible for that seat.

Yes, he’s doing awfully, on target for the best ever year of a RBR #2…

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yes, he’s doing awfully, on target for the best ever year of a RBR #2…

Depends on how you view that. He's also on target to have the largest deficit to the RBR #1 in the history of the team....

In terms of competitiveness of car, and in comparison to their teammate - 2010 was a much better year for the RBR #2.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yes, he’s doing awfully, on target for the best ever year of a RBR #2…

Man, you really should spend time reading the thread and understanding the context of what I said, rather than talking about you """paddock sources"""

[peebee2]

I see the point missed as often.

The history books will show the first Red Bull 1-2 in the points. RB PR machine remains as effective as ever.

The endless overthinking is simply BS and RBR use the noise to hoover up Latin sponsors.

[Akrapovic]

That is literally the point that I, and several others, have made in this thread.

However, since we're missing points, I should point out that this fact hasn't mattered much to RBR management, who have continually criticised him. And that is why we're having this discussion.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That is literally the point that I, and several others, have made in this thread.

However, since we're missing points, I should point out that this fact hasn't mattered much to RBR management, who have continually criticised him. And that is why we're having this discussion.

No problem. Although Dr Marko is supposedly not “RBR management” lol.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Depends on how you view that. He's also on target to have the largest deficit to the RBR #1 in the history of the team....

In terms of competitiveness of car, and in comparison to their teammate - 2010 was a much better year for the RBR #2.

The difference between 2010 and now, is Perez is on target to be runner up, which Webber wasn't. Perez just missed out on being runner up last year and I'm sure that's something RBR would want to achieve.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The difference between 2010 and now, is Perez is on target to be runner up, which Webber wasn't. Perez just missed out on being runner up last year and I'm sure that's something RBR would want to achieve.

For the record books, I get that. A 1-2 in the WDC is a not very common occurrence.
It doesn't mean that it is the best RBR #2 performance though. If you look at how far behind Max he is, then it looks like a sub-par performance benefitted by a car that is way in front of the field.
It will always be subjective though.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For the record books, I get that. A 1-2 in the WDC is a not very common occurrence.
It doesn't mean that it is the best RBR #2 performance though. If you look at how far behind Max he is, then it looks like a sub-par performance benefitted by a car that is way in front of the field.
It will always be subjective though.

I think what looks like a sub-par performance is primarily due to the car being dialed in to suit Max.

As Teretonga said in post #430

''If Red Bull want to get Perez back to early season form then they need to be tailoring the set up for his car to be what is best for him, not trying to get him to match Max with Max's set ups.''

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For the record books, I get that. A 1-2 in the WDC is a not very common occurrence.
It doesn't mean that it is the best RBR #2 performance though. If you look at how far behind Max he is, then it looks like a sub-par performance benefitted by a car that is way in front of the field.
It will always be subjective though.

Arguably Mark Webbers 2011 performance was marginally better than Perez 2023. But for RBR that's the only one I can think of that's there. Webbers 2013 was pretty shocking.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If Red Bull want to get perez back to early season form then they need to be tailoring the set up for his car to be what is best for him, not trying to get him to match Max with Max's set ups.

in an era of constrained resources, money, and time how much effort can a team put into optimizing the car for their second driver? at what point would this approach begin to compromise their first car efforts?

perhaps this is less of a compromise early season vs late season where they may now be thinking more of getting a march on next season where RB will face more restrictions on their money and time relative to the other teams (due the the cap rules right?).

while a 1-2 finish would be great but surely securing 1st place with Max next year is a greater priority than developing a car that Perez likes more?

in that light, securing a 2nd driver whose style is more similar to Max' preferences might mean that that 2nd driver would then have a car that suits them better while not having to compromise on additional help in setting up/optimizing Max' car?

anyways, its the 2nd seat of one of the most dominate cars ever...only natural to speculate what could have been had someone else been in it imo!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in an era of constrained resources, money, and time how much effort can a team put into optimizing the car for their second driver? at what point would this approach begin to compromise their first car efforts?

I could be wrong, but I took Teretonga's comments to be not about optimizing core characteristics of the car, but rather event based setup. I had always assumed that each side of the garage is doing their own setup (spring rates, damper settings, ride height, etc.). However they may have come to the event with ideas of what the simulators are saying will be a good base setup that both drivers might start out with.

I know there have always been stories of a driver not being able to get his setup correct and then just copying his teammates setup. And then some level of keeping setups secret from each other. Usually when the teammates are battling each other for the championship.

I can expect that you can adjust a car to more fit your style, but if you are fighting the nature of the car (and it's natural window for it's best performance), you might create a setup that works for you, is easy to drive and lastly... slow.

Who knows what is going on within RBR with respect to setup. My general impression is that Perez's problems are less with the car than himself. But the following statement also likely fits in...

Originally Posted by Teretonga

No driver drives consistently at or near the front in a car he doesn't have confidence in.

I can't agree with this strongly enough. I suspect some of us have done some level of performance driving or racing at various levels (very amateur to higher levels). And anyone who has, knows that this is absolutely the truth. Having a car that you can trust is an amazing thing for both your confidence in your ability and ability to push the limits. You can just stop worrying and focus on driving. Having a car that you fear will bite you without warning will destroy your ability to perform.

Richard

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The difference between 2010 and now, is Perez is on target to be runner up, which Webber wasn't. Perez just missed out on being runner up last year and I'm sure that's something RBR would want to achieve.

2010, despite the standings, was a better season for RB as Webber was on target to win the whole thing up until the last race. Had he not bottled Korea and won the title, it's highly likely it would have still been a 1-3 in Webber's favour with Seb 3rd.

Checo this year is nowhere near even threatening that, but will still probably fall into P2 thanks to the best car on the grid.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Arguably Mark Webbers 2011 performance was marginally better than Perez 2023. But for RBR that's the only one I can think of that's there. Webbers 2013 was pretty shocking.

I think Mark mentally checked out after Malaysia 2013

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Absolutely.
His pace is fine.
Why do I say that? Because Max was consistently doing 1.40'1.41 over the second half of the race.
No one got anywhere near the pole times under 1.35 or Q3 times. Yuki did the fastest race lap and he wasn't in Q3.
The race was about conserving tyres,, and getting the car to the finish in good shape. Strategy.


If Red Bull want to get perez back to early season form then they need to be tailoring the set up for his car to be what is best for him, not trying to get him to match Max with Max's set ups.
Checo is perfectly capable of driving quick enough to win races, or second to Max, score podiums, etc, in a dominant car that is set up to suit his preferential style.
No driver drives consistently at or near the front in a car he doesn't have confidence in. Kimi, Massa, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton or max. Non of them do.
Pundits who are expecting Perez to do so is just insane.

With Checo's experience (10th all time), he should be the one driving the setup changes to suit him, not the team.

He has plenty of experience driving poor cars, and now he's struggling because the best car he's ever driven is more suited to his teammate? Nah.

[S griffin]

Checo needs the full support of his team. To be fair Horner has been more constructive in his criticism than Marko has.

[crmalcolm]

It is being reported that the 24 RBR had failed FIA crash tests.

It seems the same happened previously, but never this late in the development schedule.

Could they start 24 on the back foot?

[Mike Harte]

I'm sure that I'm not mistaken that I read an online article from one of the reputable motor sport magazines fairly recently that the crash testing is now done in a computer generated virtual scenario rather that using actual racing cars. If this is actually correct, I wouldn't think that it would take too much time to correct the computer generated car to meet the required criteria.