[BTCC] Oulton Park Rd7/8/9

[porsche962fan]

and to think Goff was once championship contender in a Civic and now barelly gets into the points

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I didn't write the NGTC technical regulations, which is where such things are defined.
They might be considered bodyshell on the road car, but they are specifically defined for an NGTC build.

I think you are confused by the word panel. A panel is every single piece of metal that goes into a body shell construction, that's internally as well not just the outer skin panels, or bodywork which are, for the most part, just for looks, but they can also form an integral part of the stiffness of a car body shell.

[crmalcolm]

I'm not confused, I understand the difference between the road car and the NGTC build.
I can't remember the specific wording, but in the technical regulations the definitions are:

Bodyshell. The structure of the car to which the sub-frames and ancillary components are attached.
Bodywork. The components that are licked by airflow passing the car, including the floor pan.

So while a road car may incorporate some of its panels into the structure that would be referred to as the bodyshell, or chassis. On an NGTC build, the definitions are made around which homologation and other technical controls are put in place.

[crmalcolm]

So, the VW CC....

It seems that a successful NGTC car will start life as either a mid-size RWD saloon, or a small as possible FWD hatchback if it is to be suitable for UK circuits.

Which means that regardless of whether:
a) an existing NGTC chassis can be updated.
b) an existing NGTC model can be redesigned.
c) a new model is selected for homologation.

Starting with a 2020 VW CC means you will not be able to build a car that delivers consistent results in the BTCC....

[porsche962fan]

can this dead hose be finally put the rest ?

[Craner Curves]

Those CCs have taken a beating over the years https://twitter.com/WPMS/status/497839082656235520?s=09

https://twitter.com/WPMS/status/497837049282854912?s=09

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not confused, I understand the difference between the road car and the NGTC build.
I can't remember the specific wording, but in the technical regulations the definitions are:

Bodyshell. The structure of the car to which the sub-frames and ancillary components are attached.
Bodywork. The components that are licked by airflow passing the car, including the floor pan.

So while a road car may incorporate some of its panels into the structure that would be referred to as the bodyshell, or chassis. On an NGTC build, the definitions are made around which homologation and other technical controls are put in place.

But as the roll cage is attached to the floor pan, it is both bodywork and body shell by your own explanation as are other panels on the car.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

can this dead hose be finally put the rest ?

Is that the problem? The horse under the bonnet has gone the way of the parrot?

It's resting.

For what it's worth, Goff doesn't come close to JP or Turks in my books. He's good, but he's no championship material.

Anyhow, so, silly season: it's cold enough. Team Kia Volvo 48 to run JP, Turks and Matt Neale's Dad in a three car CC squad. You heard it here first.

[auroan]

The simple matter is, with NGTC the suspension mounts to subframes which mount to the ROPS. The original stiffness of a shell prior to being cut up has very limited to almost zero impact to the performance of an NGTC car.

What does matter is a shells proportions. Height, width, COG and aero all have a bigger impact, which is why the new Ford is better than the old.

I'll take conversations with the likes of Kevin Berry, Willie Poole and other similar experience engineers over someone with no credentials in this area.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Those CCs have taken a beating over the years https://twitter.com/WPMS/status/497839082656235520?s=09

https://twitter.com/WPMS/status/497837049282854912?s=09

That 2nd one was a biggie - whole new cage too?

[RS67]

Originally Posted by auroan

The simple matter is, with NGTC the suspension mounts to subframes which mount to the ROPS. The original stiffness of a shell prior to being cut up has very limited to almost zero impact to the performance of an NGTC car.

What does matter is a shells proportions. Height, width, COG and aero all have a bigger impact, which is why the new Ford is better than the old.

I'll take conversations with the likes of Kevin Berry, Willie Poole and other similar experience engineers over someone with no credentials in this area.

The ROPS still has to have mounted in the shell, the stiffer the shell in the first place, the better the end result.
What makes you so sure I don't have any credentials? (If that comment was aimed at me).
I could try explaining my credentials and experience to you, but I daresay, you would be none the wiser and assume I just made screwdrivers and hammers.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If Goff himself is struggling to get points, then there is probably something not right with the VW, whether it’s the car or the way it’s setup. Sutton is a top class driver, but not sure if he would do that much better, there’s only so much you can do with a car

I think a lot is to do with the team personally rather than the car (within reason) being the dominating factor.

Look at Andrew Jordan with the MG. Plato had multiple wins with it but the next season not a single one with Jordan and it looked a shadow of it's former self.

The important staff had gone to BMR with Plato who was now winning in the VW CC along with Turkington. Two years in a row he finished 2nd in the championship in two different cars that no-one has really done particularly well in since.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I think a lot is to do with the team personally rather than the car (within reason) being the dominating factor.

Look at Andrew Jordan with the MG. Plato had multiple wins with it but the next season not a single one with Jordan and it looked a shadow of it's former self.

The important staff had gone to BMR with Plato who was now winning in the VW CC along with Turkington. Two years in a row he finished 2nd in the championship in two different cars that no-one has really done particularly well in since.

Jordan may not have got a win, but did get four 2nd places and a third. Goff did get a win though as well as two 2nds and a 3rd, so it wasn't all bad.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by RS67

Jordan may not have got a win, but did get four 2nd places and a third. Goff did get a win though as well as two 2nds and a 3rd, so it wasn't all bad.

Yes but not a patch on the previous seasons. It was the dominant car in many ways and if it hadn't been for the way JP treats a season probably a multi-championship winner. Look at the CC with BMR. Ten wins between Turkington and Plato. In a series with so many spec/control parts the engineers really are the dominant factor IMO. Same with many other series even ones where the cars are near enough identical.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Yes but not a patch on the previous seasons. It was the dominant car in many ways and if it hadn't been for the way JP treats a season probably a multi-championship winner. Look at the CC with BMR. Ten wins between Turkington and Plato. In a series with so many spec/control parts the engineers really are the dominant factor IMO. Same with many other series even ones where the cars are near enough identical.

So by that reckoning Plato should never have struggled with the Subaru.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Apologies for veering off topic here but wasn't there something about the BMW's having a flat floor a few years ago that had to be altered mid-season?

Yes - I seem to remember Collard rolled at Silverstone and the other teams saw the bottom of the BMW and went "hang on a minute". I believe it was clever interpretation of the rules - so rather than having a flat floor they had a large flat section incorporated as part of another component that had the effect of giving the car a flat bottom without it actually being the floor.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Yes - I seem to remember Collard rolled at Silverstone and the other teams saw the bottom of the BMW and went "hang on a minute". I believe it was clever interpretation of the rules - so rather than having a flat floor they had a large flat section incorporated as part of another component that had the effect of giving the car a flat bottom without it actually being the floor.

This was the view teams got:



Which when you compare to other NGTC machinery:


shows how much WSR had 'protected' the underside with panels.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Yes - I seem to remember Collard rolled at Silverstone and the other teams saw the bottom of the BMW and went "hang on a minute". I believe it was clever interpretation of the rules - so rather than having a flat floor they had a large flat section incorporated as part of another component that had the effect of giving the car a flat bottom without it actually being the floor.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

This was the view teams got:



Which when you compare to other NGTC machinery:


shows how much WSR had 'protected' the underside with panels.

Thanks chaps, this was what I was thinking of

[crmalcolm]

Talking about the underside of NGTC cars - and particularly the routing of the exhaust. Pop trivia question - why is the exhaust mandated to exit where it does on all NGTC cars?

[Greem]

Is it to stop burning the legs of the people pushing the car out of a gravel trap?

More seriously though - I know what the regulation states (LHS of car, between wheel, within perimeter etc) but I can only think that this is to prevent the design and use of a blown diffuser or some other related (mis)use of the Coanda effect.

[crmalcolm]

When the turbo was first added at the end of the S2000 regs, the car was felt to be too quiet.
To counter this, and add to the spectacle, the regs specified a 'trumpet' that all cars use to make the exhaust louder.
It was chosen to fix this on the left, because it faces the crowd at a clockwise circuit and also means the flames are visible by the crowd.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Talking about the underside of NGTC cars - and particularly the routing of the exhaust. Pop trivia question - why is the exhaust mandated to exit where it does on all NGTC cars?

According to RaceTech magazine, it is because most tracks run clockwise and the spectators get to enjoy the sheets of flame emitted on overrun as well as the noise from the engine.

[Greem]

Well I never. "The show", eh?

[Sodemo]

I think they should have 4 exhausts, 2 at each side and 2 at the rear.

[Alfisti]

Two at the rear: I'm thinking this would allow suitably oven gloved marshals a further method to move cars out of harms way just like an overgrown wheelbarrow.