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Old 6 Apr 2019, 15:59 (Ref:3895734)   #151
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???

I thought we were talking about the costs for the said customers buying/leasing the chassis, not for the cartel constructors themselves who obviously are swimming in money even more then before (well the two French monopolies at least, Dallara to lesser extent for servicing the GM badged DPis)
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Old 6 Apr 2019, 17:34 (Ref:3895755)   #152
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Well yes, cheaper construction means they can be sold for a lower price
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Old 6 Apr 2019, 17:55 (Ref:3895760)   #153
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Naive

Also, in the old regs the cost cap was 370,000 (open top) / 450,000 (coupe), but with these "cheaper cars" it's gone up to 483,000 euros

But I'm sure the cartel manufacturers were thinking of the needs of customers first when lobbying these regulations, surely
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Old 6 Apr 2019, 18:34 (Ref:3895769)   #154
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I don't think cartel means what you think it means
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Old 6 Apr 2019, 19:35 (Ref:3895779)   #155
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LMP2 is much cheaper because of spec engines and fewer chassis choices.
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More customers = fewer construction costs. Not that hard to understand, surely
There's too many unrelated details here which are being linked together.

LMP2 is "cheap" because it is cost-capped, not because of spec engines and fewer chassis.

LMP2 has more customers due to that cost cap.

Construction costs are lower because when you cannot raise the price (due to the cap), the only way to extend the profit margin is lower the construction (and design, etc) phase. So more resources go into this phase than otherwise would have.

And as Chiana correctly points out, the cost cap for these chassis is higher than previous chassis costs. That's because with only 4 chassis (3 realistically, because 1 is garbage, and arguably 1 because the ORECA is miles ahead), you can charge the full cost cap for it.

When LMP2 was an open formula and constructors could update the chassis, market forces kept the prices lower as nobody would sell a car for $500k because other cars were $350k. It wasn't worth extra because nobody had a huge performance advantage because the cars could be updated by the constructors. Now they can't do that.

LMP2 isn't cheaper than it used to be. It's now more expensive than it was because of the limited number of chassis available.
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 02:15 (Ref:3895813)   #156
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IIRC the problem (or at least the theory) was that those constructors, because of market forces, struggled to keep going. The limitation was to help the remaining constructors be sustainable (profitable), not to make it cheaper for the teams.

In addition it allowed for a controllable increase in speeds.
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 10:34 (Ref:3895864)   #157
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IIRC the problem (or at least the theory) was that those constructors, because of market forces, struggled to keep going. The limitation was to help the remaining constructors be sustainable (profitable), not to make it cheaper for the teams.

In addition it allowed for a controllable increase in speeds.
Interesting theory considering that before these rules Oreca was making cash not only with majority of field in LMP2 (both 05 and old Courage 03R) but also LMP1 (R-One), LMPC (FLM09) and LMP3 (engine and electrical spec parts), while Onroak had large presence in LMP2 (JSP2 and old Pescarolo) and almost the entire LMP3 chassis field. Now with LMP2 going almost entirely to their spec deals, their already astronomical market share grew to even bigger heights.

Meanwhile Dallara and Riley weren't even involved anywhere except Daytona Prototype yet were handed the supply rights :-D you know while people like BR and HPD were told to get out (Zytek got the spec deal for engines so I guess they were happy enough)... So how does the reasoning of "helping remaining constructors" work in these contexts lol
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 11:50 (Ref:3895895)   #158
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Theory not practice I was considering the rationale at the time for doing it, not the outcome.
Maybe the theory was also it would allow other manufacturers the chance to compete and be profitable by giving them a chance at a sustainable market share. Although we ended up with something similar.
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 12:03 (Ref:3895896)   #159
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If that's the theory then it's very flawed as really weren't losing manufacturers. By limiting it to 4 then you cause more damage to those who were not chosen than the natural market forces ever would.

The current generation of LMP2 was a solution in search of a problem.
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 14:24 (Ref:3895947)   #160
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The "theory" might've been more believable had Hughes de Chaunac not been the spokesperson for it

Anyway there are three remaining good qualities about P2:
1. Retained tire war
2. All chassis look visually great
3. Spec is lame and goes against everything related to "prototype" but even that is preferable to GTE/upcoming-P1 BoP (the jokers for non-Orecas were sort of bop yes but jut one-time I guess)
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 17:35 (Ref:3896003)   #161
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Whatever the rationale and shenanigans, the effect is an ELMS field with:

A two-make race in LMP2 (one lone Dallara in a sea of Oreca and Ligier the exception to prove the rule)
A two-make race in LMP3
A two-make race in GTE

With spec engines in LMP2 and LMP3 cars in each class sound identical and frankly it takes an expert eye to tell them apart visually.

A 41-entry field cannot cover up that this is a poor show. I am more and more coming to the view that diversity > numbers. A 16-car field with 8 manufacturers in the Laguna Seca 8 Hours (for example) is much preferable to ELMS's stream of identikit cars.
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 18:18 (Ref:3896017)   #162
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Whatever the rationale and shenanigans, the effect is an ELMS field with:

A two-make race in LMP2 (one lone Dallara in a sea of Oreca and Ligier the exception to prove the rule)
A two-make race in LMP3
A two-make race in GTE

With spec engines in LMP2 and LMP3 cars in each class sound identical and frankly it takes an expert eye to tell them apart visually.

A 41-entry field cannot cover up that this is a poor show. I am more and more coming to the view that diversity > numbers. A 16-car field with 8 manufacturers in the Laguna Seca 8 Hours (for example) is much preferable to ELMS's stream of identikit cars.
You also forgot spec tires in LMP3 and GTE and pro-am in all of them

But yes it's pretty funny that the infamous 13 car field in the "Nightmare on ELMS street" had more variety than the field today lol

2019 HTTT 4 Hours - 41 entries
Oreca 07 Zytek
Onroak JSP17 Zytek
Onroak JSP3 Nissan
Dallara P217 Zytek
Norma M30 Nissan
Ferrari 488 GTE
Porsche 911 RSR

2012 Donington 6 Hours - 13 entries
Oreca 03 Nissan
Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
Oak Pescarolo Nissan
Oak Pescarolo Judd
Zytek Z11SN Nissan
Lola B12/80 Judd
Ferrari 458 Italia
Porsche 997 GT3 RSR
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Old 7 Apr 2019, 20:00 (Ref:3896040)   #163
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airbusA346 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridairbusA346 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Felbermayr colours back in ELMS(/LMS).

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Old 12 Apr 2019, 13:53 (Ref:3897007)   #164
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Yuri G. should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Anyone knows why Villorba isn't at Le Castellet?
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Old 12 Apr 2019, 14:23 (Ref:3897010)   #165
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Didn't they move up to WEC for next season?
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