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Old 6 Feb 2019, 21:33 (Ref:3882300)   #151
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
Agree. If ACO/LM opens to gt3, an invasion is the only predictable scenario.
If Le Mans entries are limited to 30 GTs and WEC full-season to (say) 15, how would there be an invasion?
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Old 6 Feb 2019, 21:33 (Ref:3882301)   #152
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But 30 GTEs is?

If so, what's the difference between (say):

30 GTEs split 50/50 between factory and private entries
vs
30 GT3s split 50/50 between factory and private entries?
it's different in those 30 GTE at le mans, there are basically about 90% of the whole existing GTE chassis in the world.

Open LM to gt3 and all BES, ADAC, GT300, PWC, GT-OPEN (and series I can't remember or even know at all) teams will be attracted
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Old 6 Feb 2019, 21:34 (Ref:3882302)   #153
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
If Le Mans entries are limited to 30 GTs and WEC full-season to (say) 15, how would there be an invasion?
As I just posted, for 15 entries more than 100 teams will apply for
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Old 6 Feb 2019, 21:51 (Ref:3882303)   #154
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As I just posted, for 15 entries more than 100 teams will apply for
Ah I see, gotcha.

That would at least be a nice problem to have, as opposed to the ACO's current problem of keeping manufacturers in the series for more than a few seasons at a time.

Personally I'd solve this dilemma by making the 30 Le Mans GT entries factory/pro only, running GT3s under their OEM name.

I do appreciate that there is a long history of amateur entries at Le Mans and that this suggestion thus blithely does away with something others may consider an important part of the tradition of the event.
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Old 6 Feb 2019, 22:36 (Ref:3882306)   #155
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Am I wrong in thinking that GT3 cars being far cheaper than GTE (at least to buy) is something of a fallacy? It seems to me that if there were more places to run a GTE then the cost of an RSR would be much less than the €900,000 it is now. I think Porsche have received something like 70 orders for the new GT3R. If the order book was limited to 12-ish like the RSR is, that car would cost way more than €459,000. The GT3 would still be a bit cheaper, though running costs are another matter.
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 13:50 (Ref:3882401)   #156
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 13:52 (Ref:3882402)   #157
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Am I wrong in thinking that GT3 cars being far cheaper than GTE (at least to buy) is something of a fallacy? It seems to me that if there were more places to run a GTE then the cost of an RSR would be much less than the €900,000 it is now. I think Porsche have received something like 70 orders for the new GT3R. If the order book was limited to 12-ish like the RSR is, that car would cost way more than €459,000. The GT3 would still be a bit cheaper, though running costs are another matter.
It used to be that GT3 cars were cheaper but that's changing. The Bentley GT3 I think was about $750,000. The Ferrari 488 GTE is actually cheaper to buy the 488 GT3 and then the conversion kit to the GTE edition.
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 14:57 (Ref:3882410)   #158
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guess that gt3 engines, sharing most of the parts with the street unit, are cheaper and have a longer lifespan before the rebuild, while GTE engines have more expensive racing parts and a shorter lifespan.
Recall a 2009 or 2010 R8 that made both ring 24H and spa 24H with the same engine.

Guess suspensions and gearbox too are more expensive for GTLM car. GT3 gearbox is quite a standardized part, having fixed ratios
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 15:30 (Ref:3882428)   #159
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
As I just posted, for 15 entries more than 100 teams will apply for
That won't matter either as the ACO will only accept cars also running in their regional series. I don't think 50 GT3 cars suddenly line up for ELMS or whatever but even if they did the chances of getting in without automatic (won) entry are slim.

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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
Personally I'd solve this dilemma by making the 30 Le Mans GT entries factory/pro only, running GT3s under their OEM name.

I do appreciate that there is a long history of amateur entries at Le Mans and that this suggestion thus blithely does away with something others may consider an important part of the tradition of the event.
It doesn't even have to be enforced as pro category, but simply just "GT3" where anyone with received entry can run. If rich businessman X wants to be in a category also filled up with factory cars then so be it. The ideology of "non-factory teams/drivers need class of their own" is foolish and was unheard of even in the days of GT1 and GT2

Again, I do despise GT3 (although not as much as todays GTE) however at least with this you could also go away with the sub am-class nannying
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 19:58 (Ref:3882497)   #160
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That won't matter either as the ACO will only accept cars also running in their regional series. I don't think 50 GT3 cars suddenly line up for ELMS or whatever but even if they did the chances of getting in without automatic (won) entry are slim.



It doesn't even have to be enforced as pro category, but simply just "GT3" where anyone with received entry can run. If rich businessman X wants to be in a category also filled up with factory cars then so be it. The ideology of "non-factory teams/drivers need class of their own" is foolish and was unheard of even in the days of GT1 and GT2

Again, I do despise GT3 (although not as much as todays GTE) however at least with this you could also go away with the sub am-class nannying
Not to mention there is P2 for them to run in
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 21:30 (Ref:3882521)   #161
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But 30 GTEs is?
No, that isn't for me either. I tolerate GT cars at Le Mans as I have no choice.
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 22:04 (Ref:3882528)   #162
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Problem is this isn't the Group C days where there were enough cars that GT cars weren't needed (though I think that the ACO and FIA pressed for the all prototype fields back then). Also, fields were limited to 48 cars back then, which has gone up since 2005 incrementally to the current 60 cars.

IMO, about a 50-50 split between prototypes and GTs would be ideal, but I'm not sure if that's achievable today, especially without the pro-am classes.
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Old 7 Feb 2019, 23:45 (Ref:3882545)   #163
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Not to mention there is P2 for them to run in
Yes

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No, that isn't for me either. I tolerate GT cars at Le Mans as I have no choice.
Indeed

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IMO, about a 50-50 split between prototypes and GTs would be ideal, but I'm not sure if that's achievable today, especially without the pro-am classes.
It's already 50-50 by seemingly mandated enforcing, which I don't really agree with, but anyway if they did axe GT(E)-AM and also morph P2 (back) into free-for-all class, I don't see why you couldn't have the same percentage as today.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 01:27 (Ref:3882551)   #164
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No, that isn't for me either. I tolerate GT cars at Le Mans as I have no choice.
So you would rather see 2 Toyota’s, 6 privateer P1s, 48 Orecas, and 4 other P2s?
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 02:47 (Ref:3882552)   #165
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I think Ayse is just saying what he’d prefer.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 03:21 (Ref:3882555)   #166
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Problem is this isn't the Group C days where there were enough cars that GT cars weren't needed
GTE is only in the race for manufacturers. It isn't cost effective as borne out by how few privateers there are racing where they don't automatically get into Le Mans by doing so. Right now it's mostly that forced 50/50 ratio that drives teams from LMP2 where there's a colossal bottleneck to GTE Am. GTE Pro had an impressive car count last year but that's something of an illusion thanks to Ford and Porsche entering 4 cars. You could lose half of those 17 practically overnight.

If you allowed LMP3 in the big show and went back to the fastest x cars you would fill up the field with prototypes instantly.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 07:04 (Ref:3882564)   #167
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Grid consisting solely of P1, P2 and P3 would be fine with me. P3 field would have to be capped to max. 10 cars though and you could only enter it by winning the regional series or if ACO reserved 1 slot for each chassis manufacturer and your entry was allocated int this criteria.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 07:07 (Ref:3882565)   #168
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I'd rather some GT's than p3's. No need for ANOTHER class that all sound the exact same. Then we'll get commentators who can't tell the difference and think one of them is an lmp1 crashing or something.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 07:08 (Ref:3882566)   #169
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I'd rather some GT's than p3's. No need for ANOTHER class that all sound the exact same. Then we'll get commentators who can't tell the difference and think one of them is an lmp1 crashing or something.
Well yeah I forgot to say that P2 would have to be morphed back into (at least somewhat) less spec formula.

Or you have
LMGTP
LMP1(NH)
LMP2
LMP3

So technically there would still be that GT aesthetic present...
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 09:18 (Ref:3882584)   #170
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This would make an excellent stand-alone "design your own series" thread. I'm enjoying reading this.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 14:24 (Ref:3882631)   #171
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Well yeah I forgot to say that P2 would have to be morphed back into (at least somewhat) less spec formula.

Or you have
LMGTP
LMP1(NH)
LMP2
LMP3

So technically there would still be that GT aesthetic present...
I think the Le Mans 24 was prototype only through the 80's and up to 1992. GT only came back in 1993 after the 1992 race had just 25 cars.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 14:52 (Ref:3882638)   #172
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I think the Le Mans 24 was prototype only through the 80's and up to 1992. GT only came back in 1993 after the 1992 race had just 25 cars.
Yes it was Stephane Ratel who essentially "saved" it during 1992-1993 offseason and onwards, after the FIA had screwed up C1 regulations bit earlier

However that was then, and this is now
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3882647)   #173
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Yes it was Stephane Ratel who essentially "saved" it during 1992-1993 offseason and onwards, after the FIA had screwed up C1 regulations bit earlier

However that was then, and this is now
I am someone who admits is a GT fan first and foremost. I find the hypercar or car/car whatever the name is very appealing. Go ahead and make the rest of the grid prototype based. Got no issue with that. Especially since GT racing is good hands with SRO and IMSA around. The latter which could be the exclusive home to the BMW M8 and Ford GT by later this year.

GTE does appear to have a future though at Le Mans considering the Corvette C8 and the Brabham coming with new cars. Predict that Porsche is going to stick around with the 911 RSR too. Maybe a new generation of that to come. Aston and Ferrari could be moving to the hypercars.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 18:15 (Ref:3882673)   #174
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I am someone who admits is a GT fan first and foremost. I find the hypercar or car/car whatever the name is very appealing. Go ahead and make the rest of the grid prototype based. Got no issue with that. Especially since GT racing is good hands with SRO and IMSA around. The latter which could be the exclusive home to the BMW M8 and Ford GT by later this year.

GTE does appear to have a future though at Le Mans considering the Corvette C8 and the Brabham coming with new cars. Predict that Porsche is going to stick around with the 911 RSR too. Maybe a new generation of that to come. Aston and Ferrari could be moving to the hypercars.
I think I might reconsider what i said earlier today now after hearing the marshal/graham podcast.
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Old 8 Feb 2019, 18:31 (Ref:3882675)   #175
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I think Ayse is just saying what he’d prefer.
I am indeed. And frankly, the answer to Dyson Mazda's question is Yes.

Personal preference.

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I'd rather some GT's than p3's. No need for ANOTHER class that all sound the exact same. Then we'll get commentators who can't tell the difference and think one of them is an lmp1 crashing or something.
Again, personally, I think the P3's are excellent entertainment and I'd happily have a bunch of those to make up a full prototype field.

Personal preference again.
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