Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Running the race cars with a brand on the side is a profit making exercise, whereas developing a race car is a loss-making exercise.

If a number of teams are only interested in running cars and not developing them (e.g., Team 18, Team Sydney, Matt Stone Racing), why force them into a technical arms which they have no interest in?

Nobody's forcing them. but car racing is an arms race.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

So what does it matter if Gen 3 cars are actually identical!?

Does even one single fan care that GRM use Kevlar wheel arches when Kelly Racing use carbon-fibre wheel arches? Nobody cares about the minute differences that are still allowed, it makes no difference to anybody.

Possibly not the fans, but GRM and Kellys do.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

For example, the Supashock control shock or Alcon control brakes have come in... It's not like we've seen fans throwing away their Sachs or Brembo flags away in disgust at their favourite brand of shock or brake caliper being outlawed!

Car racing is outlet for the automotive industry. When it isn't that then it's lame.

[tobyobi]

It appears Supercars are starting to request tenders for Gen3 equipment:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/09/01...ol-components/

The interesting part that Speedcafe skipped over would be that Gen3 will be going drive by wire throttle:

3. Technical Requirements
a. Pedal box specifics:
vii. GEN3 will use fly by wire throttle

There are also references to "control front and rear suspension", but unclear whether that is just the new Pedders SupaShock control units, or an entire control corner design.

[ford71]

Pretty sure Speedcafe had a separate article for the Drive by Wire decision.
As they are wont to do

[V8 Fireworks]

I wonder why they are (potentially) changing the brakes and the wheels? Particularly the wheels which seem fine, unless it is just a formality and the current design and supplier is likely to be re-confirmed.

[tobyobi]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I wonder why they are (potentially) changing the brakes and the wheels? Particularly the wheels which seem fine, unless it is just a formality and the current design and supplier is likely to be re-confirmed.

Could be the opportunity to see what other suppliers may offer, and also ensure that the incumbent supplier isn’t price gouging.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by tobyobi

Could be the opportunity to see what other suppliers may offer, and also ensure that the incumbent supplier isn’t price gouging.

Imagine a world where the teams themselves could see what other suppliers may offer and choose accordingly, the one price gouging may lose out...or the teams may find its worth the money.

[Gaz170]

Personally I liked when everyone could choose their own wheels, made the cars look a bit more interesting.

Reading between the lines, WAU have BMW interested (4 or 6 series?).

Camaro could be a go, not sure who would fund it though, maybe 888 using a similar deal they have with the current Commodore.

DJRTP & Tickford would likely stick with Mustangs, maybe Kelly's as well unless a great deal is offered elsewhere.

Kia Stinger is still a wildcard, but will take a lot of money - who's going to fund that?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

Personally I liked when everyone could choose their own wheels, made the cars look a bit more interesting.

Reading between the lines, WAU have BMW interested (4 or 6 series?).

Camaro could be a go, not sure who would fund it though, maybe 888 using a similar deal they have with the current Commodore.

DJRTP & Tickford would likely stick with Mustangs, maybe Kelly's as well unless a great deal is offered elsewhere.

Kia Stinger is still a wildcard, but will take a lot of money - who's going to fund that?

WAU and BMW deal fell apart due to Covid so now BMW in Gen 3.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

DJRTPwould likely stick with Mustangs, maybe Kelly's as well unless a great deal is offered elsewhere.

I can see PENSKE, packing up with Scotty and going home.
No Holden = no series worth worrying about

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

I can see PENSKE, packing up with Scotty and going home.
No Holden = no series worth worrying about

Roger has bagged a bunch of wins and put a skidmark on Scotty's Bathurst win, so he'll pull up stumps, leaving Dr Ryan Story behind...

[djr81]

Speedcafe as the fuel capacity of gen 3 up to 130 litres from 111. Probably only adds another four laps to a Bathurst stint but it all helps.

[Sandgroper]

He's at it already.

https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...arity/4876544/

I do understand clarity needed, but he is always so vocal.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

He's at it already.

https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...arity/4876544/

I do understand clarity needed, but he is always so vocal.

With some good reasons it would seem. I have to agree with him that the series management have been asleep at the wheel and if they don't wake up soon there will be a big crash.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Casper

With some good reasons it would seem. I have to agree with him that the series management have been asleep at the wheel and if they don't wake up soon there will be a big crash.

Oh I agree, its a large investment which you need clarity but he always seems to be in the media and vocal, maybe good free advertising

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Unfortunately for me, I've been accused of double standards. It's an incorrect accusation, but it's not for me to call out the accuser and diminish them.

It has however enabled me to make points I've made in other threads, but make them in this thread and keep on to the topic. So her it goes.

It’ll be interesting to see what concoction Gen 3 turns out to be.

Fans can dream up any car they like. But motor racing economics still applies regardless of opinion. It’s not a questions of whether you like it, that doesn’t matter. It’s a question of what your opinion is in spite of it.

You can get a think tank consisting of Adrian Newey, Gordon Murray, John Barnard and Frank Dernie involved, but motor racing economics is still motor racing economics.

I’ll give you a frame work picking the two most prominent engine configurations, and you can fill in the gaps with other types of car and engine configurations.

5 litre V8 - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

2 litre 4cyl - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$


5 litre V8 producing 2 litre 4 cyl performance - $$$$$$$$$$$

2lt 4 cyl producing 5lt V8 performance - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Car doing low 2min at Bathurst - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $

Car doing low 2:10 at Bathurst - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Car doing low 2:20 at Bathurst - $$$$$$$$$$$


Converted road going to a racing car - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Specialist racing car - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$


“Safe” car - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Not so safe car -$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Value of spec/type cars for the front runners - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Value of spec/type cars for the midfield/tailenders - $$$$$$$$$$$


More races - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Less races - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


This is not even my opinion. It’s just how car racing works.

Supercars has exhausted every outlet possible to maintain an ideology. Time has come for a significant compromise. What’s it going to be?

Personally, I would just have “managed” a 2 litre cars, cut the red tape and open up the possibilities for competitors.

But that won’t satisfy the supercars community and their fans. They strictly adhere to a motor racing ideology with absolutely no compromises or regard for anything else (except the authenticity of the cars). So we’ll see what happens.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

He's at it already.

https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...arity/4876544/

I do understand clarity needed, but he is always so vocal.

Woah woah woah! I did not read this trash! Hang on a second.

Peter Adderton is exactly the type of numpty you don't want involved motorsport. But affirms my point that supercars fans are not interested in car racing. The following quotes...

"Consumers have become less passionate about the brand of their car," he said.

Well, that's actually a problem for car racing.

"I think people love the concept of racing.

Have I not said something like this???

If you look at fans right now, a lot of the people who follow MotoGP, at the end of the day they don't ride Ducatis or Yamahas. That's the way I see it."

The problem for supercars is that Motogp is the real deal. The bikes are authentic. Supercars are not. (Plus, people do ride Yamahas. )

Adderton. Just an attempt to be a dumber, less scary, home brand version of Flavio Briatore.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Woah woah woah! I did not read this trash! Hang on a second.

Peter Adderton is exactly the type of numpty you don't want involved motorsport. But affirms my point that supercars fans are not interested in car racing. The following quotes...

Well, that's actually a problem for car racing.


Have I not said something like this???

The problem for supercars is that Motogp is the real deal. The bikes are authentic. Supercars are not. (Plus, people do ride Yamahas. )

Adderton. Just an attempt to be a dumber, less scary, home brand version of Flavio Briatore.

A motogp bike has as much in common with a road bike as an F1 car does with a road car.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

You are correct. The bikes are from the manufacturer, and that it what makes it genuine.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You are correct. The bikes are from the manufacturer, and that it what makes it genuine.

That's true. You can cheer on the Yamaha, Honda, KTM, Aprilia, Suzuki or Ducati in the knowledge it was engineered by same company who engineered your own road-going bike. There's always WSBK or ASBK is you are interested in more production-based stuff, either way be it prototypes or production-based, there is a huge variety of manufacturers on the grid.

Whereas, Supercars is limited to just Holden and Ford, one of which doesn't exist more, much to the detriment of people who are enthusiasts of other car manufacturers be it Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Renault, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, Alfa Romeo, FIAT etc...

Most disappointingly Nissan and BMW were heavily involved in the ATCC, yet were not involved in the drafting of regulations for '93, which is just outrageous given the sensible broad-based 2000cc rules popular in England at the time ('92) which accommodated all manufacturers and provided great touring car racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEfiwyiV8hs

Even if not the British rules then say, a 2000cc turbo & 5000cc NA equivalence formula could have been the ticket for Australia, with 2L I6 Skylines and 2L I4 Cosworth Sierras racing 5L V8 Commodores, Falcons and 5L V12 8 Series?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

I have to agree with him that the series management have been asleep at the wheel and if they don't wake up soon there will be a big crash.

It is quite concerning that Supercars do not appear to have sufficiently tactful plans in place to reattract important makes like BMW and Alfa Romeo...

[Casper]

While it is a V8 powered silhouette series none of the big European makers will look at it. Open the series up to use the OEM motors and it might work but to do that goes against the philosophy of the series. The fact that the philosphy use by date has expired is yet to register on the fans and the promoters. The series has had a good run but sooner or later reality will set in and things will change.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's true. You can cheer on the Yamaha, Honda, KTM, Aprilia, Suzuki or Ducati in the knowledge it was engineered by same company who engineered your own road-going bike. There's always WSBK or ASBK is you are interested in more production-based stuff, either way be it prototypes or production-based, there is a huge variety of manufacturers on the grid.

Yeah. But other fans don't get that. They think how they're entertained is more important than the authenticity of the cars.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Whereas, Supercars is limited to just Holden and Ford, one of which doesn't exist more, much to the detriment of people who are enthusiasts of other car manufacturers be it Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Renault, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, Alfa Romeo, FIAT etc...

Yeah, that's another thing supercar fans don't get. They think racing is a pantomime.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Most disappointingly Nissan and BMW were heavily involved in the ATCC, yet were not involved in the drafting of regulations for '93, which is just outrageous given the sensible broad-based 2000cc rules popular in England at the time ('92) which accommodated all manufacturers and provided great touring car racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEfiwyiV8hs

Even if not the British rules then say, a 2000cc turbo & 5000cc NA equivalence formula could have been the ticket for Australia, with 2L I6 Skylines and 2L I4 Cosworth Sierras racing 5L V8 Commodores, Falcons and 5L V12 8 Series?

Tbh, Nissan stank. The GTR was taking the mickey and I agree they shouldn't have been considered.

Australia is not a motoring/racing hub, and was a bit behind the times. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As an outright class, the 2ltr car were not the right class for the ATCC at the time. The Ford/Holden class was fair enough. But eventually that should morphed into a class Toyota and Mitsubishi would like to compete in. The later down the road, a super touring type class.

With the inferiority complex in Australian motor racing. There's no way a 2 litre class would be allowed to compete equally with 5ltr cars. It would've confused plebs.

Super Touring - Good enough for Nigel Mansell, but not good enough for Dick Johnson.

[tobyobi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Super Touring - Good enough for Nigel Mansell, but not good enough for Dick Johnson.

Class II Touring Cars ("Super Touring") and Group 3A Touring Cars both started in 1993.

One of these two formulas managed to not shoot itself in the foot with spiralling manufacturer induced costs by the start of the new millennium.

I would agree Supercars aren't in a great spot right now, but Super Touring was dead 20 years ago. History would suggest they've backed the right horse so far.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by tobyobi

Class II Touring Cars ("Super Touring") and Group 3A Touring Cars both started in 1993.

Not really. But I get the point.

Originally Posted by tobyobi

One of these two formulas managed to not shoot itself in the foot with spiralling manufacturer induced costs by the start of the new millennium.

It's got nothing to do with shooting itself in the foot. Super Touring got too big to handle. It was also an extension of Group A.

Originally Posted by tobyobi

I would agree Supercars aren't in a great spot right now, but Super Touring was dead 20 years ago. History would suggest they've backed the right horse so far.

Not just they're not in a great spot, they've been stale for almost the whole time. In the absence of anything else, they're just accepted as being "best" or "better".

Super Touring may be dead, but 2 litre cars have carried on.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yeah. But other fans don't get that. They think how they're entertained is more important than the authenticity of the cars.

Professional motor racing is only there for one reason and that is entertainment. SC, BTCC, NASCAR etc are designed to make money for the promoter and participants and then entertain but above all to make money and that does not happen without fans being entertained.