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Old 10 Jun 2009, 16:30 (Ref:2479317)   #51
Peter Mallett
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The monoque was a B because the D type was not ready,hence the use of MG GTS,saved having to actually designate a type.
Yes but as we discussed previously, the chassis number (which is a B GT number) is reportedly the same as that which John Chatham raced as a "C" in the 1970 Targa Florio. Ergo either they stuck the "C" front subassembly on to the "B" chassis or this was a completely new chassis with the rear adjustable uprights and the front push rod set up. Which would mean they could interchange a four pot (2004cc) with a six pot on the same mountings.

Interesting......................
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 18:59 (Ref:2479495)   #52
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I believe John Chatham also made the 'ultimate' MGC that he raced in the modsports series. I think he sold the car some 10 years ago to Mick Darcey who also owns LBL 591 that raced at Silverstone a couple of years ago.

I know John's son and I am catching up with him soon so I will ask John a bit about the history of his cars. I have been told that he is releasing a book this year which should contain lots of interesting MGC racing history.
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 19:23 (Ref:2479523)   #53
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Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Put me down for a copy of that one!
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 19:41 (Ref:2479549)   #54
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Have you been drinking the Vodka in Russia Peter?!
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 19:52 (Ref:2479561)   #55
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Not for the past two years.
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 20:07 (Ref:2479582)   #56
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Phew!!
OT I know but when JC sold DD300 as the most original and un-molested 3000 ever - jeez, I'd hate to see the others then!!
Good to hear the C is a bit more well-recorded.
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Old 10 Jun 2009, 20:14 (Ref:2479587)   #57
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JC's car

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I believe John Chatham also made the 'ultimate' MGC that he raced in the modsports series. I think he sold the car some 10 years ago to Mick Darcey who also owns LBL 591 that raced at Silverstone a couple of years ago.

I know John's son and I am catching up with him soon so I will ask John a bit about the history of his cars. I have been told that he is releasing a book this year which should contain lots of interesting MGC racing history.

Any info on this car, did it /does it have the last functioning alloy engine!
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Old 11 Jun 2009, 13:10 (Ref:2480059)   #58
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Any info on this car, did it /does it have the last functioning alloy engine!

I know it did have an all alloy engine that was mounted much further back than the standard C motor and it suffered from reliability problems, but I am not sure if it still has the same engine. I will find out in a couple of weeks and let you know.

Regarding the Healey, Ollie Chatham told me that they have built a new Healey the same as DD300 with a registation plate DD301. I think it might be at Combe this weekend so I am popping up to have a look.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 15:13 (Ref:2484568)   #59
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MGB GT LBL591E

Good topic, I just joined this forum.... You may be interested to know that LBL591E is alive and well. It will be restored to race condition here in Vancouver BC Canada, hopefully for the 2011 racing season. This is the car that ran Sebring 1967, 1968 and 1969, and the Targa Florio 1968. The car was 'dropped' on the loading docks in the UK after returning from Sebring 1967, the shell damaged beyond repair. All components, equipment and even ID tags and locks were then transferred by BMC Comps to another shell, and prepped for the 1968 season. After Sebring 1969, it was sold off by BMC (as was typical with Comps cars), and it soldiered on in SCCA racing in the USA. Amazingly, the car today still retains many original Comps parts. I will try to post a photo taken at the Targa Florio if I can figure this out.... Ralph
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 16:20 (Ref:2484601)   #60
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Great thread chaps! stumbled in by accident, good fun reading so far.

A couple of comments which might muddy the waters further...The MGC used a 6 cyl engine very similar to the Healey 3000 unit, in fact sharing piston dimensions but not a whole load else (from memory). Can't remember the BMC engine designation but it's not the 'C' type engine...that's the Healey 6 cyl engine designation, a much older generation motor as per the 'A' and 'B' series engines of similar period.

Relevance? well, Abingdon commisioned at least two aluminium blocks for the Healey BJ8 works rally efforts, and I think one was fitted to the stillborn '67 RAC car which Arthur Carter owned. The other/another we resurrected for Chatham in the '80s and stuck some new liners in.

However, I don't recall ever seeing an all-alloy MGC engine, but terribly happy to be corrected - damn I wish the memory worked better!
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 18:30 (Ref:2484677)   #61
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I'm 99% sure that JC had an all alloy engine in his modsport C. I will catch up with his son to confirm as soon as he is back in the country.

Regarding LBL 591E, it seems that there are two people claiming to own this car because Mick Darcey raced his LBL 591E in the Heritage 45 race at the MGCC Silverstone International Meeting in 2007. So which one is the real deal?
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 19:48 (Ref:2484728)   #62
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Micks IS the proper car.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 19:53 (Ref:2484734)   #63
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Great thread chaps! stumbled in by accident, good fun reading so far.

A couple of comments which might muddy the waters further...The MGC used a 6 cyl engine very similar to the Healey 3000 unit, in fact sharing piston dimensions but not a whole load else (from memory). Can't remember the BMC engine designation but it's not the 'C' type engine...that's the Healey 6 cyl engine designation, a much older generation motor as per the 'A' and 'B' series engines of similar period.

Relevance? well, Abingdon commisioned at least two aluminium blocks for the Healey BJ8 works rally efforts, and I think one was fitted to the stillborn '67 RAC car which Arthur Carter owned. The other/another we resurrected for Chatham in the '80s and stuck some new liners in.

However, I don't recall ever seeing an all-alloy MGC engine, but terribly happy to be corrected - damn I wish the memory worked better!
As an aside,GRX 307D still survives in its purest form,having NEVER been restored/*******ized since its purchase from the works by Sid Beer.


The memory is'nt that bad,the 67 RAC Healey still has the alloy engine.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 20:25 (Ref:2484765)   #64
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Micks IS the proper car.
The first 'proper' car, or the second 'proper' car? Surely if there were 2 bodyshells then there can be 2 claimants / restorations.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 21:14 (Ref:2484824)   #65
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Engines

To clarify the engine situation please visit www.aronline.co.uk then in the side menu enlarge the 'Facts and Figures' sub menu, then 'Engines' and click C-series. (Sorry but I was unable to copy a direct link to this page, hence the lengthy explanation.
I also bet that if you find this thread interesting, you'll spend quite a bit of time wallowing in the nostalgia on the aronline web site!
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 00:06 (Ref:2484907)   #66
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MGB GT LBL591E

Well, as far as I am concerned, there really is no controversy. There is a red LBL591E, and a green LBL591E. The damaged red shell from the 1967 Sebring car 'became' (at some future date) the red LBL591E as seen in the UK today. The 1968 green LBL591E, with the 1967 components, (and even some brackets and parts showing red paint) ran Sebring in 1968 and 1969, and Targa Florio 1968, as stated previously, as built and entered by BMC Comps. It then had a long continuous SCCA history in the USA, until located in the 1980's. All documented. So, let there be two LBL591E cars, no controversy. How's that? RZ
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 03:33 (Ref:2484952)   #67
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1969 Sebring MG Line-up

Here's 2 more photos from the 1969 Sebring. A great view of the two MGC cars, and LBL591E, and a rondelle close-up for your viewing pleasure! RZ
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 05:19 (Ref:2484966)   #68
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The "controversy" come's about through BMCs practice of selling off competition cars in order to pay for thier Sebring outing,they then kept the registration numbers and re-used them over here,so that brings us to the point of which car was built first? Then we know which car IS the original,the one rebuilt from the wreck or the one rebuilt from a chassis number? This is a problem that has come about on quite a few occaisions, it makes you wonder if it would still be the same if the cars were completely worthless though.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 06:57 (Ref:2484993)   #69
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To clarify the engine situation please visit www.aronline.co.uk then in the side menu enlarge the 'Facts and Figures' sub menu, then 'Engines' and click C-series. (Sorry but I was unable to copy a direct link to this page, hence the lengthy explanation.
I also bet that if you find this thread interesting, you'll spend quite a bit of time wallowing in the nostalgia on the aronline web site!
Wow, one sentence and it came back; 7 main bearings. I was obviously wrong about the designation 'C' series - both AH and MG engines referred to as this; however as I said, they are completely different engines, essentially sharing bore and stroke and critical piston dimensions only.

With the MGC type engine only being made in limited numbers across its' short lifespan, and the block being cast with a lot less meat than the 'old' 'C' series (weight saving..) I can't see they'd have chanced an aluminium block. If they did...not sure I'd risk using one now without some serious NDT and a set of modern liners..

Regarding the cloning of chassis/reg numbers, many people knew about what had happened, to what car and when, and this started to reach a head in the late '80s and early '90s when historic race and rally cars with even a sniff of provenance were making massive money at auctions. Some of that knowledge will have become twisted or got lost with time, but for competition AH and MGC info I'd start by asking Chatham. Not sure what became of (son)Joe and Pete Ford - they worked in the business daily so would know plenty of tales..
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 09:16 (Ref:2485072)   #70
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And there you have it,cars making big money in the eighties.What would happen if MBL were to reach these shores? Yes it has the right to ware the reg number but it would never be allowed to be used on the road using that number,it would therefore never be worth the amount that Mick's car is because of the suspicion that would surround it.Similar case with BMO541B,the long nose version,it has most of its original ally body but because it is referred to as a "North American" car by two of the "Formost" members of the MGCC,the current owner cannot get the registration number.Did BMC know that their policies of number plate swapping would cause sooo much controversy in later years? I'll bet that Bill Price etc often have quite a chuckle to themselves over these cars.[Bill has incidentally checked BMO over and has said that it IS the original car!!]
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 11:32 (Ref:2485135)   #71
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Yeah, I think there was a bit of a push some years ago to align the various international bodies with regard to historic papers, mainly because of 'identical' cars cropping up either side of the pond. But that must have died a quiet death, unless the FIA have got a handle on it by now?
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 11:53 (Ref:2485148)   #72
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It's not really down to the FIA,more like the Owners Clubs,the Healey Owners Club now insist on the car/cars having the original chassis as opposed to a new version if they are going to recognise the car as Authentic,not before time either!.If the FIA recognise the car as original,and the owner wants it as such,then there is a charge of something like £1200 for the paperwork etc.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 19:22 (Ref:2485438)   #73
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LBL591E

Well, BMC did in fact sell off LBL591E after Sebring 1969....BUT they definitely did not retain, or keep, the registration. I know this because I have the actual Bill of Sale for LBL591E when it was sold off, which clearly states 'LBL591E'. I think that would be fairly convincing evidence....if any were needed... RZ
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 20:00 (Ref:2485467)   #74
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Well, BMC did in fact sell off LBL591E after Sebring 1969....BUT they definitely did not retain, or keep, the registration. I know this because I have the actual Bill of Sale for LBL591E when it was sold off, which clearly states 'LBL591E'. I think that would be fairly convincing evidence....if any were needed... RZ
Fair comment but you still cannot argue as to what car is now classified as the original version,that of course resides over here.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 21:43 (Ref:2485536)   #75
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LBL591E

I never argue with anyone Terence. If the UK guys are happy with the damaged red shell as being LBL591E, OK by me. I'm perfectly happy with the green BMC Comps built car, with all the components, logs, documents , period photos, Bill of Sale and continuous race history, being considered the real LBL591E by us poor cousins in the colonies...Safety Fast, RZ
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