The 'Credit Crunch' and the Future of Club Motor Sport

[Al Weyman]

yeah would'nt you love that, picture the scene, you are at a Best of British and one of the earlier races and you spin out or breakdown and your car is left there. Only problem is there is two or three Radical Mini enduros on so you may have to wait hours before you recover your car when in reality all you want to do is load up and get home.

Then the organisers would then need more cars/series/championships on the day to make up the shortfall.

But its the old break the circle argument again isnt it? Because if they could put on more races with a subsequent cut in entries you may well get more cars out. Even you must see John that what you have is quite unique in as far as you have another group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race which is fair enough I am not knocking it but can you honestly name any other groups of racers that would be prepared to amalgamate like this as I cannot even with similiar spec cars in the same club!!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

But its the old break the circle argument again isnt it? Because if they could put on more races with a subsequent cut in entries you may well get more cars out.

I'm not confident in your supposition, otherwise I'd buy a day and see if it worked.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Even you must see John that what you have is quite unique in as far as you have another group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race which is fair enough I am not knocking it

Unique? I think not.
We have various classes and some contain faster cars than others others. I can think of many other series where that would also be the case.
If you look close to home I am sure that you will find similar examples.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

but can you honestly name any other groups of racers that would be prepared to amalgamate like this as I cannot even with similiar spec cars in the same club!!

Not yet.

[Ian Sowman]

John, I take your point about the Racing Ahead format being for spectators and not offering such VFM for competitors - I can see it both ways. But (and this is supposition) I suspect marshals might be put off by the longer races too in a lot of instances, and does an extra five minutes of driving around necessarily make for better value - would shorter, closer, more competitive races not offer more thrills per pound, which must surely be at least as important as minutes of track time per pound?

[Austinspace75]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race

The pace differential front to back in TTRS isn't huge compared to many other series/championships. Believe me, I know what you're talking about and its not much fun if you at the back, but this isn't the case here. Also, many of the cars in the more powerful classes don't really make much headway into lapping the lower power ones. Sometimes its the other way round!

Another point worth mentioning is that there is less (if any) emphasis placed on the overall position. Ok, the spectators are less likely to be interested in the class battles, but this series is designed for the drivers. However, the battles in those lower classes are very entertaining... particularly when you're trying to pick your way through them having qualified lower than you should do. I really don't think those guys you're talking about feel particularly 'beaten' by anyone..

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

would shorter, closer, more competitive races not offer more thrills per pound, which must surely be at least as important as minutes of track time per pound?

The problem with regards to the 'more shorter races in a day' idea is that the organisers schedule would be much more stressed (and stressful for them to manage) and at risk of creating the kind of problems seen at Rockingham last year.
From a drivers value-for-money perspective, I've found I like a mix of some quick hectic and busy races, inter mingled with the odd longer race where I get a chance to break free and enjoy some quality time on my own, keeping it all together and having the chance to work on the lap time.

I suspect I'm not alone in liking some variation in race length across a given season, but I also suspect there's many who specifically like either short or long races. The point is, by having a mix you're more likely to please everyone at some stage.

[johnw]

Yes Ian, having done some marshaling I agree that some racing is exceedingly tedious.
There are plenty of posts on here from marshals decrying long races, so I'm sure that you are correct.

However, I've been in 30 minute races this season which have finished with less than half a second between the winners and 2nd place, with similar gaps existing through the field.

I have watched mini enduros that are tiresome from half way through the first lap, and short races that are no more competitive than longer ones, (but they do have the benefit of being over quickly)
So I'm not convinced that there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

There is the real problem of VFM, if you are paying.
Two ten minute races would cost us the same as a 30 minute race (due to the extra clean up, gridding and green flag time.) There really seems no way out of this extra cost.

Would I prefer to have shorter races if they guaranteed more competition?
Yes of course - but there is no guarantee and therefore I (call me selfish) want the best bang for my buck - and that simply means time on track.
I cannot countenance the surreptitious handing over of Mrs W's housekeeping to enable nothing to be happening on track other than watch course cars circulate.


What is more certain IMHO, is that the more cars there are on track, the better the likleyhood of something interesting to watch.

So we're back to filling grids which should provide more excitement for the drivers, entertainment for the marshals and hopefully something interesting enough to write about for you scribes.


BTW

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

....and who do not mind being lapped and beaten...

Is that another unique in TTRS? - We stopped the beatings

[Al Weyman]

Yes thats all well and good AustinSpace (and John) but I ask the same question again which is can you think of any other series/championships that an amalgamation like this would get the approval of the competitors because I can't and where as its working for you thats just one group of guys who sound like you may have maxed out the grid slots anyhow, what about an overall solution.

Look as I have said many times (fortunately) I don't give a toss about getting beaten or lapped but I do like to line up knowing that if I was good enough or chucked enough money at the car I could be up there with a bit of luck. To line up on a grid in a car that I know however good I and the car is because of the model/formula am that I am just going to get blown into weeds by others on the grid who are running to a totally different set of regulations I would not like (unless I was doing the blowing of course :-)).

This is not just me ask about and see what reaction you get. When the Modprods from were amalgamated for one race with some CTRCC race the drivers were not happy and up in arms, the Classics as I said previously were not happy to go out with PHTC's so where are you going to find a consensus amoungst drivers to do this. As I said your group are in a fortunate postion and long may it prosper for you but there is still generally only 30 odd places on the grid at the end of the day.

[ukaskew]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I was at Mallory spectating the other day and had just about the best day's entertainment ever without being behind the wheel. Short laps, close racing, result in doubt until the chequer, and you're really close to the action, what more could you ask for? Having been brought up on Combe/Silverstone/Thruxton bore-a-thons watched from miles away behind catch fencing, where the fastest car normally wins, it quite reminded me why I love motor racing. Breathtaking.

Bit surprised by this, I haven't been to many circuits where you are much closer than Castle Combe, I couldn't even consider how it could be mentioned in the same context as Silverstone. Whenever I take new people along they are shocked at how close you can get (especially those that have only ever been to WSR or an F1 GP), you also get the benefit of an easy walk around the entire circuit with viewing available for 99% of the journey.

The gap between races has been mentioned in this thread as well, apart from one event at Combe this season run by a different club (I can't remember which, specifically), the gap between races has always been immensely short compared to any other circuit I've been to this year. Some events appear to have an arbitrary 10 minute gap between races, Combe just get the next lot out on circuit as the last recovery truck is heading towards the Pit Lane.

Certainly as a model of how it can be done for the benefit of spectators, Combe seems to tick most of the boxes, yet even they have had some strangely low spectator numbers this season at certain events. The spectator numbers generally seem to be above average though, and compare favourably even to some well known major national packages.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

but I ask the same question again which is can you think of any other series/championships that an amalgamation like this would get the approval of the competitors

And I'll answer again (see post #102)
Not yet.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by ukaskew

Combe just get the next lot out on circuit as the last recovery truck is heading towards the Pit Lane.

Agreed, Combe do a great job of packing in the action.
So do 750MC, MSVR and others we experienced this year.
Why can't they all do it?

[calypsoelise]

Difficult thread to come into with so much already said - some of which is realistic and some of which is ******..

I have limited experience of racing compared with some on here BUT i've spent nearly every day for the last 8 years at circuits or putting cars onto circuits - mainly track days but also setting up 2 new race series that have both started with full grids and although I'm no longer involved in one - other than some web help and sponsorship. both ran full grids on their first ever meets and are still doing so today 5 or so years on for one series and coming to the end of the 2nd year for the other series which i currently organise. I also run Europes largest t/day club and probably buy track time from more different circuits in Europe than any other organisation. It's a hobby that I don't get paid for so no reason to quote financial facts that aren't true.

Going back to the original question - The 'Credit Crunch' and the Future of Club Motor Sport.

* I think the first thing you have to ask is who's racing and why?

The VAST majority of people in club motorsport in the UK aren't racing for the glory of winning.. The VAST majority will never win a race. They are not going to make it into F1 or end up racing for a living. They are racing for the fun of it.. it's a hobby just like playing golf, fishing or sailing. If it's not enjoyable - and this includes impacting significantly on family life they will stop doing that hobby.

There's no fun in driving around a circuit on your own, even if you have a full grid.. Grids where drivers are going to be racing closely AND fairly with each other all the way through - be it at the front or at the back is what gives drivers enjoyment. Having a full grid where cars are spread out more or less from the start doesn't work even if the entry fee is low. Spending a few hundred £'s to get to a circuit 200 miles away to have a 15 minute race doesn't work. Putting the car back on the trailer knowing you've a big hole in the pocket and may struggle to get out next time also doesn't help.

Close racing all through the grid, Clean racing, Decent track time - not every series needs the same, A good calendar with some single days and at decent circuits, Decent facilities, Being involved in the meeting both socially and generally just knowing whats going on with scheduling etc will keep people racing. I'm sure belts will need to be tightened but if organisers and circuits can offer the above then they are doing their bit.

* Entry fee's

We've got 11 rounds this year and our average entry fee is between £250-£260. We always have a minimum or 20 mins qually and 2 x 20 minute races but have had the odd 30 or even 40 minute race chucked in. We visit major circuit - Brands Hatch Grand Prix (A1GP), Spa Francorchamps, Donington Park, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Croft, Silverstone - International and GP circuits and Cadwell.

I believe that keeping entry fee's to those levels, offering track time that suits our cars and most importantly drivers - the vast majority of whom have only started racing in the last 18 months means that they will keep turning up through a recession. They are club racers, some drive to circuits - we have one truck for over 60 regular drivers their overheads are getting to and from the circuit, entry fee's, consumables - fuel, tyres, parts etc and accommodation. For most the entry fee is about 30% of their weekend cost. Also for most if they take a heavy knock they will be out for a round or maybe two so it's important we try and keep control of that side. I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win.. yes some want to win and we need that but having a fun, sociable weekend is most important.

We buy our tracktime and set the entry fee based on number of cars we expect to compete. If we want to reduce an entry fee somewhere we have to find a sponsor for that round or subsidise by increasing the fee at a more popular or cheaper round. Personally I have no doubt what we are charged for track time is extremely fair - we pay our % of the day, we don't subsidise other series. We don't get any special deals, I'm sure the bigger clubs have much better buying power. We do take the financial risk - if you don't want risk and series want a club to take the risk for them then they should expect to pay more.

We are a non profit club and our committee and team of helpers are volunteers. This obviously helps but the vast majority of those who help are current or ex-drivers. We don't have hospitality but we do have a good social mix.

Unlike most club series we do have TV thats costs us a significant part of our budget BUT the drivers don't pay for this we work to bring in sponsors to cover this. For a small, new club series we are able to bring in about £50k of sponsorship - it's hard work for the volunteers but it's there if the right package can be put together. We don't have sponsors who require looking after as thats not something we have time to do - we make it clear what we're offering and stick to that so don't let them down. For our third year next year we're looking to increase that figure slightly and so far sponsors are signing up already - 4 more confirmed this weekend. If drivers start to get hit then we will use sponsorship money to top up the missing entries, although we don't currently see this being an issue based on driver surveys and feedback.

We do try and keep drivers informed and involved in the series - emails, forum, open q&a's at meetings - again at Silverstone yesterday they were able to give feedback on 2009 regs and calendar.

When launching the series we decided to approach MSVR as we believed they had fresh ideas and had real belief in making club racing substanable for the long term and not one year wonder series. Also that they really do want more people to go racing and at a club level - big international meets are nice but they believe the bread and butter is club racing. We get support whenever we need it - normally in terms of technical advice and calendars but they work with us knowing that if we get it right we'll buy track time and bring more people into motorsport generally. Many clubs offer this level of support not just MSVR but some haven't looked at what they do for many years and just think they have it right... I think drivers in series run by those clubs need to get involved in their series, give feedback and ensure everyone knows what drivers need. Not once have MSVR ever tried to get us to take more track time or tried, even in a small way to get us to do something the drivers don't want to do.

* Spectators

Anyone who is relying on getting more paying spectators through the gates in an attempt to subsidise race entry fees is kidding themselves. As someone else has said this isn't 30 or 40 years ago - there are MANY more social activities open to everyone now. Just on TV alone how much more motorsport is there many, many times more coverage available to joe public every day than there was years ago. Times have changed don't live in the past!!

We are lucky as a series to have a strong spectator following - 3000+ have turned up to support us at the odd round and we reguarily get a few hundred-1000 in but that's because we are a club, one mark series and we do the marketing ourselves as we know our own community. This just wouldn't be possible for most series.

If people want more spectators at cluby meets series are going to have to help push to their market - I've watched a lot of live racing over the years but if I tried to take the family along they just wouldn't be interested, there are too many other attractions. My 14 year old spent between 6am and 7pm yesterday at Silverstone - he was more interested in playing computer games than sitting and watching racing. Times have changed.

As for some of the figures quoted with regard to profit at large meetings where spectators do come in you really have no idea how these meetings work! Wake up, do some research and really understand what events cost to put on and where the money goes some of you are in cloud cookoo land.

If club drivers want cheaper entry fee's they need to be realistic and look at their series/clubs over heads and do as you would in any business and buy at the best possible price. Then ensure you are putting on the best package for your drivers to maximise the grid I'm sure that the vast majority of race series in the UK could benefit from more driver involvement. Just don't leave it too late with whats round the corner for next year and the year after.... then whinge and blame the circuits or specators...

* Track days

PLEASE can people stop posting ****** about track days and the income they bring in unless they have actually run a track day. Some of the figures posted are so far out it's past being laughable. Track days income and not be compared to race income it's a totally different ball game.

Finally, before I get off my soap box.. This are going to get tougher, I'm sure they already have for a lot of drivers and series but there's not point in looking at the past and saying this happened or that happened the World has moved on. By the time some of you wake up it will be too late. If you care about your series try and get involved in it, if clubs or organisers don't want to listen get drivers together sooner or later they will. I'm sure most organisers and circuits are worried about whats going to happen over the next 2 or 3 years and for some racing is probably just a small part of that worry but an important one.

Anyway just my slightly different view point from someone who's relatively new to the sport..

[Al Weyman]

Good informative post if I may say, what championships are you involved with if I may ask. I agree with most of what you said bar one thing

I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win..

Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

[calypsoelise]

Hi Al

I orriginally set up PBMW with a few other lotus owners and put orriginal deal together with SEMSEC etc guaranteeing the full grid to ensure we were taken seriously as a new series. Moved on at the end of year one with a few of the others.

Now run http://www.elisetrophy.com with the rest of our team.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I agree with most of what you said bar one thing Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

What you probably missed in my statement:- "I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win.. " was the word ONLY. I seriously don't believe we have one driver who is ONLY racing to win.. We pull drivers from our track day club and yes winning is important for some, a trophy is great for everyone, but it really is more than just winning.. The cameradery we have in our paddock i would hope is as good as you will find anywhere.. No one will damage a car for the sake of the win.. We have an ex-F1 driver on the grid in terms of Martin Donnelly and I'm sure he plus the guys who do tend to win will back me up and say it's more about the whole package - the guys are elated when they do win but so are those all the way through the grid..

I've never seen one driver sulk or give up because he hasn't won. Yes they may get upset if get a bit of damage or in heat of the moment loose 25th place because of a push but never sulk.

If it all became about the winning we wouldn't have a series.

PS. although we have huge grids - 60+ cars at points this year we are remaining a series for year 3 and have no intention of being a championship - probably backs up the winning statement even more..

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Good informative post if I may say, what championships are you involved with if I may ask. I agree with most of what you said bar one thing Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

Calypsoelise is involved with Lotus On Track and having been involved in running some of their meetings this year I think that they are doing a pretty good job of running their club. Their drivers are a friendly bunch and there is very much a "we're all here having fun" atmosphere to them.

They are fairly unique, as Calypsoelise says in that the majority of their drivers are new to motorsport (that's a huge achievement on its own!) and are still finding their way, it would be interesting to see whether the model could be transferred to another series?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by calypsoelise

. . .
* Spectators

Anyone who is relying on getting more paying spectators through the gates in an attempt to subsidise race entry fees is kidding themselves. As someone else has said this isn't 30 or 40 years ago - there are MANY more social activities open to everyone now. Just on TV alone how much more motorsport is there many, many times more coverage available to joe public every day than there was years ago. Times have changed don't live in the past!!

We are lucky as a series to have a strong spectator following - 3000+ have turned up to support us at the odd round and we reguarily get a few hundred-1000 in but that's because we are a club, one mark series and we do the marketing ourselves as we know our own community. This just wouldn't be possible for most series.

If people want more spectators at cluby meets series are going to have to help push to their market - I've watched a lot of live racing over the years but if I tried to take the family along they just wouldn't be interested, there are too many other attractions. My 14 year old spent between 6am and 7pm yesterday at Silverstone - he was more interested in playing computer games than sitting and watching racing. Times have changed.

As for some of the figures quoted with regard to profit at large meetings where spectators do come in you really have no idea how these meetings work! Wake up, do some research and really understand what events cost to put on and where the money goes some of you are in cloud cookoo land.

. . .

How refreshing to see this set out in plain language. I'm even more doubtful as to the realities of getting significantly more spectators in to watch club level motorsport. Frankly, what would some club meetings offer them? Too many club races are trackdays with timing (and I've seen soem trackdays which were more interesting!) Before anyone gets too upset, no of course that does not apply to all club level sport, but it does to some.

Club level motorsport is run for competitors, full stop. (And since they are paying for it - that's fine.)

Jim

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

Therein perhaps lies the answer to the question you keep asking about how the class F guys can countenance racing within TTRS.

If your suppostion is correct about winning being the only thing, the logical consequence is series with one competitor.

Like Paul's series, we are in the position of having drivers that are happy to race for enjoyment. If they win their class they get the same award as the overall race winner. If not, they seem happy enough to try again.

[andy97]

Calypsoelise has hit the nail on the head and is obviously speaking with authority. Club level motor sport is like asking vast numbers of spectators to pay to watch the average club golfer or sunday league football team. Time to get real, vast crowds to watch club racing ain't going to happen.

[ukaskew]

Originally Posted by andy97

Calypsoelise has hit the nail on the head and is obviously speaking with authority. Club level motor sport is like asking vast numbers of spectators to pay to watch the average club golfer or sunday league football team. Time to get real, vast crowds to watch club racing ain't going to happen.

I honestly believe it is possible though, maybe not consistently, but there are ways.

Going back to Combe, they have had substantial crowds in recent years, and continue to attract spectators despite not having any 'major' series coming to the circuit any more. One of the biggest draws seems to be the immensely popular circuit based Championships, something that I assume will become more relevant if times get more difficult than they are at the moment. I've no idea about actual attendance figures, but they would appear to be higher than almost all equivalent events I've visited elsewhere.

Its location is often mentioned in its favour, but Thruxton is only down the road and has most of the major series visiting during the course of a season, yet there were probably more people at some of the Quali days of 2 day meets at Combe than there were at the Quali Days for BTCC or F3/GTs at Thruxton.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by calypsoelise

Now run http://www.elisetrophy.com with the rest of our team.

Hi Paul, nice to see you over here mate.

[Andrew Kitson]

For those that do not know him, 'calypsoelise' Paul Golding is a super bloke and well respected, sorry to embarrass you Paul as I know you will be!
Paul has done a great deal for the 'Elise Garden Party' fundraiser event each year, raising money for the Little Havens Childrens Hospice. This year we raised nearly £50K, from a room with only 175 diners and an on-line auction on the SELOC site.

Michael Hipperson the organiser asked me to do something which we gave to Paul, so I did a small painting of Martin Donnelly winning at Donington in Paul's Elise. Here L-R, Michael holds the picture up, Martin Donnelly signed it for Paul, 'calyposoelise' and yours truly on the right. A great night had by all and a lot of money raised.






Anyway, back to topic...

[johnw]

Excellent post Andrew.
Agree Paul is a great chap and an inspiration to many of us.

Great painting too.

[calypsoelise]

Andrew - what are you like! just a hello from someone like yourself is a highlight. your picture was the best gift i've ever received, will be here longer than the car with the time and effort you put in. It should also be said you've put much more into the EGP charity events than I have..

*blush*

Hi John - should catch up sometime..

[johnw]

Look forward to it.

[snett fan55]

re post 110 by calypsoelise,
Can I thank him for a real down to earth assessment of the predicament we all seem to be heading towards.I have followed this thread,and agree with some of the feelings expressed, but it is time to accept that the paying spectator is no longer the provider/supporter we once were.I'd love to think that we could go back to the days when thousands of people fought to leave a clubbie meeting at my beloved Snetterton,but it will not happen.Our money may help defray the costs of the meetings,but it will not guarantee their future.
Personally,I believe that the future can be improved by encouraging the young,indeed my own grandsons have been going to both bike and car meeting since they were a few months old!
Probably because I took my sons from about 4 or 5 years of age,they have developed huge enthusiasm for any motorsport.
I hope we can (as has happened before) weather this storm,and that it may be shortlived. Regards to all

[andy97]

In most areas of life at the moment prices for goods are being slashed in order to get people through the door, goods off shelves & cash in the till. I wonder if circuits will take a similar view of their hire fees? Probably not, but I definately know that dates at some circuits are already being declined because they are just unaffordable, and the clubs can't put themselves at risk of going out of business by running meetings that they can't be confident of filling.

[Rod Birley]

Andy, have a look at the Lydden thread. Sadly your correct in that some circuits are putting their prices up by quite a large margin.