The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That rumor is BS.

It could be. However, is there something with the compound and/or construction that would have an impact besides the size adjustment from the ARX-02 days?

Pickett was complaining about the design of the tires for the Lola (obviously not the wider front tires) in that they were designed more for diesels (or at least the older, more powerful petrol cars) than for today's petrol cars:

"Honestly, one of our problems with the P1 tire is the Peugeots and the Audis, with all their power, are so difficult on tires. So this car, without the power it's had in past years, it's hard to get heat in the tires we'd like. But Michelin is working very closely with us and I think we're making a lot of progress in that regard.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ory?id=6682465

I don't know if this is an issue that is or can be sufficiently settled prior to Toyota's debut. Of course, this is all assuming they are going with Michelin. That may not be the case.

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

Or we can compare Toyota's return to Peugeot's in 2007. The car first hit the track the 31 december 2006, and was race ready for Monza in april 2007, where it won. So it took them "only" four month to get the car reliable enough for a 6h event at decent pace.

Sure, they weren't ready to win LM, yet they were able to win 6/6 LMS races. I'm aware things have changed since then (especially the fact ILMC has nothing to do with LMS), but I don't see why Toyota's new car wouldn't be ready to race as soon as Spa, and even Sebring sounds plausible.

The Peugeots at LM in 2007 were really not up to the job, and it wasnt until 08 until they were. On top of that, the whole level of competition has been raised significantly since 2007. Consider that the Toyota will be competing not against a few LMS stragglers, but the F1-standard cars/teams of Audi and Peugeot (both with over a year experience with their machines, and further experience before that), and a couple months testing starts to sound insufficient.

All of this is fine of course if expectations are kept low in the first year, and it is made clear that 2012 is a year for testing and gaining experience.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by deggis

The fine is 30,000 € per skipped race, btw.

Ahem , 30.000 euro per entry .

[deggis]

Of course. When AMR can swallow it, it should be quite nominal fine for Toyota.

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by cdsvg

All of this is fine of course if expectations are kept low in the first year, and it is made clear that 2012 is a year for testing and gaining experience.

Yes, that's the point. They won't expect wining straight for their first racing apearances. They're obviously ambitious, but not arrogant, so they have to accept the idea of either racing "alone" in ALMS, or playing second roles in ILMC at first.

So I insist a Sebring entry is plausible (although it's a very tight schedule obviously), even if they know the car won't fight for the win. And Spa sounds like a mandatory apearance for anyone contesting Le Mans anyway, so in the worst scenario we'll see them there, but I bet it will be sooner.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

So I insist a Sebring entry is plausible (although it's a very tight schedule obviously), even if they know the car won't fight for the win. And Spa sounds like a mandatory apearance for anyone contesting Le Mans anyway, so in the worst scenario we'll see them there, but I bet it will be sooner.

For me Sebring is definitely not going to happen. The R18 was not ready for Sebring even though it had its shakedown at the end of November and Audi is highly experienced. Toyota will hit the track at least one month later.

[FIRE]

Great news!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AGD

It could be. However, is there something with the compound and/or construction that would have an impact besides the size adjustment from the ARX-02 days?

Acura literally put rear tyres on the front wheels, which of course caused issues. Rear tyres are designed to always point in the same direction and to transmit the engine power, while front tyres are designed to be steered by the driver.

Originally Posted by AGD

Pickett was complaining about the design of the tires for the Lola (obviously not the wider front tires) in that they were designed more for diesels (or at least the older, more powerful petrol cars) than for today's petrol cars:

That happens when you are forced to use tyres that were designed for cars with more downforce and more power...

Please read the Michelin article I referenced earlier:

“The new tyre is better suited to the new prototypes’ weight distribution and 2011-spec aerodynamics. It is particularly beneficial with regard to cornering speeds.”

The Audi R18 and Peugeot 908 are said to have near 50/50 weight balance. So I doubt Toyota will have troubles with the Michelin rubber.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Please read the Michelin article I referenced earlier:

The Audi R18 and Peugeot 908 are said to have near 50/50 weight balance. So I doubt Toyota will have troubles with the Michelin rubber.

I read the article, but it is unclear if any major changes have been made aside from the size change. Obviously Peugeot and Audi have their programs with Michelin to create specific tires for each car and I'm sure those two teams are more than happy, but will there be enough time for Toyota to get the same results with their car? I'm sure Toyota isn't wanting to bolt on AMR-One tires or something to go racing. Of course, this all assumes that Michelin is the tire.

[R4z3rw33n]

Pretty fantastic news. WEC just gained some further credibility.

The concept (to me) looks similar to the early 908 design linked earlier in this thread - very 908-esque from the front to the roof-scoop, from there on the chassis seems similar to the R18. Should be interesting to see which drivers end up at the Toyota camp.

Can't wait for next year.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The reaction of the ACO on Toyota announcement: http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Toyota...ns_-_5424.html

More reactions: ALMS reaction and FIA reaction.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

My guess is on a 2.0 turbocharged, direct injected engine. The number of cilinders will be the biggest surprise: straight 4 or V6.

The big question is what the hybrid system will look like. KERS on front wheels or in gearbox? Lithium Ion battery, supercapacitors or combination?

I was thinking.

In the beginning of the week the technical rules for 2012 are announced. One of the 3 main highlights is that "The release of energy is allowed on the front wheels but only above 120 km/h." However, the 2011 rules already allowed this: "Recovery and release of energy from the brakes, either on the 2 wheels of the front axle, or on the 2 wheels of the rear axle." Hence, the real change for 2012 is that the electric FWD must not be active at low speeds and thus the risk of the hybrid rules being misused as driving aid (i.e., 4WD) are ruled out.

The big question is why are the hybrid rules further refined? ... Clearly because one of manufacturers will use a hybrid system that operates on the front wheels.

Today Toyota announces their return to Le Mans with a hybrid petrol drive train. That can not be a coincidence!

Moreover, when F1 introduced KERS, Toyota's engine boss Luca Marmorini was very critical about the rules. He called the F1 KERS primitive because it was only allowed to operate on the rear wheels, while most of the braking (70%) is typically done by the front wheels.

This leads me to conclude that the Toyota hybrid system will operate on the front wheels.

[TF110]

I agree, FWD 'KERS'. This is the best news I've heard all year. Toyota have a lot of former F1 Staff waiting to be used, I imagine they'll be put to good use! This is all I've been waiting for. Bring on 2012! GO TOYOTA!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota have a lot of former F1 Staff waiting to be used, I imagine they'll be put to good use!

(just to spice the conversation)
Those F1 staff didn't made a great job there...

[Matador]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

(just to spice the conversation)
Those F1 staff didn't made a great job there...

Certainly did a well enough job in 05 and 09.. let down both years by the driver (s)

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Certainly did a well enough job in 05 and 09.. let down both years by the driver (s)

ok. fair enough...

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Great to see Toyota return, and not do a Porsche (leave it for a few years till they actually come back).

Hopefully they'll take the fight to Audi and Peugeot. Shame that over the last few years Le Mans has simply been about those two, when in previous years it was always so open. Hopefully with Toyota returning, Porsche in a few years, and probably a couple of others too, it'll start to become a wide open race once again.

Great news for WEC too. I so hope Silverstone remains on the calendar so I can go in 2012.

[AGD]

Another potential reason or benefit of not going the WEC championship in 2012 is that Toyota may be able to bypass any testing restrictions if there are any for next year.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

(just to spice the conversation)
Those F1 staff didn't made a great job there...

And what makes you think they were kept on , twiddling their fingers waiting for something to happen ?

Long gone I expect .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Great to see Toyota return, and not do a Porsche (leave it for a few years till they actually come back).

You cant be serious ..... this has been strong rumour for years . At least Porsche didnt spout crap , they made a date and will stick to it .

Plus its not like they wernt busy in ALMS/LMS/ILMC and lots more . Plus the rules were against them , their just getting them sorted out FFS .

Jesus , some people just crack me up !!! Just what do you expect from Porsche competitions department then ? ..... The next space shuttle !!!

[deggis]

Mike thinks the engine is a development of the 3.4L V8:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

This would be nice. Sound aspect, you know.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by The Badger

And what makes you think they were kept on , twiddling their fingers waiting for something to happen ?

Long gone I expect .

Especially considering all the motorsports personnel who were called back to beaver away on projects unknown.

10.3.11 @ http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Mike thinks the engine is a development of the 3.4L V8:

I was hoping for the turbo 4 for nostalgic purposes. We have lots of 3.4L NA V8s as it is including the TMG Rebellion engine itself obviously. Is there any chance then that Rebellion gets the same engine (minus the hybrid) or a slightly weakened version of the same engine as the factory team?

Mike's word about the hybrid system (or the lack of news regarding the hybrid system) is a bit concerning. I'm sure Toyota is working feverishly and maybe they are just being secretive, but with the combination of the old engine design, possible lack of hybrid development, and possible lack of chassis development, is there any chance that this project may not come close to what we are hoping for in 2012? Then again, there is something to be said about going with an engine with a proven track record.

[MitchZ06]

There's no doubt this has been in the works for some time now so I don't really think there should be any concern when it comes to what the hybrid system will be or how the chassis goes.

Plus, Toyota is about to **** off every single private petrol LMP runner that's been complaining about equivalency....

Hopefully Rebellion gets some help from the factory to improve their pace even more!

[photopigg]

I think it will be intresting to see how a factory petrol engined LMP1 with full works backing gets on aginist the diesels