Super GT racing in EUROPE

[RickP:Clio51]

Folks,
Great thread on the Super GT vs GT1, all 9 pages.. sadly the biggest issue is cost, with a Super GT costing around $3mm each to build, the GT1 budgets from Aston and Corvette would never compete, to run one of these cars without manufacturer support would be very very expensive.

Now, if there was a Nissan 350Z GT500 racing in anger at Assen/Silverstone and Spa at the end of this year, would anyone bother to go see it? Could I get a show of enthusiasm? Any 350Z clubs out there that would make the pilgrimage?

Thoughts:
"Cripes it's a one off chance to see something really special, count me in"/"Well if I'm in the neighbourhood I may drop by"/ "Sorry I scheduled a hair wash for that day already" Delete as appropriate....

Sorry to be a tad cryptic... will explain more as I have it...

[Nivola]

Mate as an person who has seen one you guys must!!!!!!!!!!!! go and see one run!

Guys and girls of this forum u must take this oppotunity if it arise's!

I get to see an old gt300 RX7 run again soon! Sounded nice to day firing her up.

[SALEEN S7R]

I would come along and watch it depending on what was racing alongside it and providing the support package was half decent, ie some FPA or VW Cup support races.

[zac510]

I would go but not just for one car and only if I could poke around it in the pits. But I'm a bit of a tragic and will travel far and at expense for otherwise insignificant motor racing events .
What class would it run in?

[RickP:Clio51]

The Uk appearence would be the support race for the Silverstone 24 hours in the Dutch SuperCar Challenge... it's a pretty impressive series (check it out on Motors TV.... and wonder who the good looking chap is with the 1000 yard stare on the titles in the Nissan suit ;-) )
And yes, I would actively encourage "sniffing around it" in the pits...

[chemhead1]

I've seen JGTC/SuperGT machinery up close and in action back for their only U.S. All-Star race in 2004 at California Speedway. It's definitely something worth experiencing once in your life. Especially how you can feel the loud "POP!"s from the cars backfiring when downshifting right in your chest.

Probably the coolest point of that weekend was how they had a walkway for fans right inside the garages and it was open to everyone when it wasn't a "hot" session. Nothing like hearing that Z's awesome VQ35DETT start up and fire INDOORS!

If any of you can make the trip and see the SuperGT Z, I would definitely recommend it.

[dj choc ice]

if superGT came to the UK i would be there through hell or high water and i would crawl over a broken glass for a mile to see the superGT in the UK, especially at silverstone or donington, dont send it to brands, the organisers put everything on the god awful drawfish indy circuit when the GP track is fabulous in every way.

[ss_collins]

I'd go to Silverstone for it alone, the other tracks if there was a decent scrap in the offing

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Nivola

Mate as an person who has seen one you guys must!!!!!!!!!!!! go and see one run!

Guys and girls of this forum u must take this oppotunity if it arise's!

I get to see an old gt300 RX7 run again soon! Sounded nice to day firing her up.

I agree, I saw them when they visited California Speedway a few years back, great racing and a great show.

[neiltbag]

Originally Posted by pederb

I agree, I saw them when they visited California Speedway a few years back, great racing and a great show.

I was there too, and it was utterly brilliant.

[tux]

if they did come id be there! even if i had to walk the 100mile journey!

[Kai]

I too was at the US exhibition, great great stuff. Broke my heart when they never returned here...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Kai

I too was at the US exhibition, great great stuff. Broke my heart when they never returned here...

I think the only ONE exhibition race was do to lack of support from the American Marketing Partners of these Japanes cars.

[chemhead1]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I think the only ONE exhibition race was do to lack of support from the American Marketing Partners of these Japanes cars.

Yeah, add to that the GT-Association (JGTC/SuperGT's governing body) being furious at the way the SCCA handled course control* and the track conditions** and security for the event***, and you get a pretty strong recipe for "Like Hell We'll Come Back" Soup.

It's a shame, though. Initially after the U.S. Exhibition, there were some rumors from credible sources saying that IF they were going to come back, they would've considered a street course around Los Angeles's Staples Center using it's car park. Yeah, not likely, seeing that most of the old car park is now under construction for a massive mall/"outdoor entertainment center" and a parking structure.
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*Usually, when posted on the SuperGT website, a given race weekend's preview and lineup will be posted with schedule of events, what support series are running, and race authorization (Always from GT-Association) and official recognition (FIA and whatever motorsport governing council for that country: Japan Automobile Federation (JP) or the Automobile Association of Malaysia (MLY).) For the U.S. information page (which sadly I can no longer find), it was the FIA (pretty much just allowing the race) and SCCA (which did the actual dirty work of race control). One snafoo for the race was that under safety car periods (a rarity for any other SGT race but somewhat prevalent in the US race), under a pitstop, for some reason the SCCA marshall at the end of pit road did NOT hold cars at the end of pit road until the field passed (thus putting the car at the end of the field (longest line in NASCAR terms), which allowed some cars, like the eventual race winner #3 HasemiSport 350Z (albeit only winning due to the #32 Nakajima NSX being penalized 1 minute, I'll get to that) to overtake not only under safety car, but also overtake from pit road. Here's a quote from the race report here:

On lap 68, the No.5 Vemac stopped on the trackside, causing the Safety Car to be called out again. Kaneishi took advantage of the Yellow Flag and pitted the No.3 car while running second. And since there wasn't any control at the end of the pit lane, he managed to rejoin the race without losing position. (Under normal circumstances, the car would have been prevented from entering the track until the pack had passed.)

Pretty much, Kaneishi pulled the same stunt Montoya did at Canada. Except thanks to poor race control, not only did he end up NOT getting penalized, he ended up taking advantage of the driver ahead being penalized and WON.
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**While the oval (Just built in 1997. Nice job, Roger Penske!) was beautifully smooth from what I overheard drivers saying (or at least what I heard one guy translate to his buddy), the infield was visibly bumpy, cracked, and downright narrow. A few quotes from the Practice session reports here:

While drivers praised the speed they were able to attain on the oval section, there was some concern about the infield as passing was not an option due to the narrowness of the track.

The drivers didn't hold back when giving their first impressions of the road course track as Andre Lotterer commented afterward: "The track is bumpy and very busy to drive, much like a kart track. However, the grip level was not so bad."

Richard Lyons after qualifying put it as a fun but challenging circuit. Seems it was pretty unforgiving:

"It's quite an interesting track, though very bumpy in the infield section. Because of the dummy chicanes, it's going to be challenging during the race. You can't see your way through the tires so it's a new challenge every time. The track is somewhat technical, though more fun. My last lap was very good; in fact it felt almost perfect. We hope we can continue this form through the race. To do well, we'll have to be consistent through the chicane. The keyword is caution; a mistake there could cost us the race."

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*** Secuirty and overall crowd control was a definite concern. Aside from a special grandstand set up at the final chicane for fans paying $10 more to their admission, all race passes (Saturday, Sunday, or All Days) were General Seating, which was just about anywhere BUT the oval grandstands (except for one far section at Turn 1 to catch the action at the end of pit road and the first chicane.). So you were catching guys climb on top of barriers or sneak into restricted areas to watch the race.

Also, one thing that really shocked me was the security during the lesser events. One instance I can personally recall is during the Tuner Car Time Attack sessions on the infield-only course. One car ended up nicking a concrete barrier at the main "stadium" chicane (I call it stadium because it was where the majority of infield grandstands were set-up, strategically for it being the last chicane and where the D1 Drift event was to be held that Sunday), the car being the Skyline time attack car from Signal. Pieces of the right front fender and fascia were layed on the side of the track. One fan managed to run right into the track (DURING A HOT SESSION, no less) using a gap that open for marshalls and when there was no activity on the track so the fans can cross to the other side to exit. The fan grabbed the pieces of bodywork and stuffed them into his backpack. How he wasn't caught, I'll never know.
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It's just a shame that these mistakes, all compounding upon one another, end up making the US market look bad for Super GT. Hopefully you guys in Europe will do a MUCH better job at controlling yourselves and maybe you guys might get a race before we get one again.

So you see, AU N EGL, if anything there was a massive support from, if not the manufacturers, the aftermarket/tuner community and companies as well. I couldn't walk around California Speedway that weekend without running into an APEX'I banner, or a Tein flyer, or even someone wearing a Nismo t-shirt. Maybe there wasn't much manufacturer support from our side, but that definitely wasn't a major factor into why they didn't come back (It really wasn't going to be THAT marketable to bring those cars across the Pacific for one weekend to begin with).

Sure Paramax (the PR firm responsible for setting up the GT Live weekend at Fontana) managed to bring a surprisingly sizable amount of publicity for the event (aside from their crappy commercials that ran on Spike TV at 2 in the morning), mainly through the internet and tuner forums. But they seemed to drop all the weight on the GT-Association once the cars hit the track. Now they're running GT Live events at Phoenix Int'l Raceway and VIRginia Int'l, minus D1 and JGTC/SuperGT. Grand-Am GT and Koni Challenge are making decent attempts at filling in the gap that the Japanese left, but until Super GT comes back, it's nothing. I honestly don't know how soon we'll actually be ready to host a Super GT event again.

[AU N EGL]

* Race in the US under SCCA PRO RULES( which I agree are not always the best) with FIA Officials, Not Super GT rules or bring THEIR OFFICIALS. Support races ( which this was) gets paddocks that are avalible, which are never that good.

* Track conditions, what a little bump scares them? Jezz good thing they did not race on Sebring. . Narrow race tracks are just part of RACING. Pass where they can.

Street races or parking lot races take too much MONEY to set up. Look how long it takes to set up Long Beach, Houston, St Pertersbug or Tornto. Let them race as supporting races for CART ( or what ever it is called ) Or the IRL. Both need all the help they can get.

*** There were spectators? (Sorry could not resest that one.) Spectors go where the PROMOTOR puts them, and not always into the paddock to watch.


If there was support as you say, why did they cancel the East coast races? or the BIG question why have the not been back?

Edit:

I was at the GT-Live event at VIR. More drifting then anything. Yes there were spectators. quite a few came for the GT Live event.

But when the Grand AM GT race started, All there spectators and drivers JAWS DROPPED wide open with the sight of real racing.

We even had a GT-Live event in conjunction with NASA race. Mostly the GT-Live cars were kept on the infiled Patriot road course ( we dont race on that course as it is too short and more of a glorigfied go-kart course.)

They were given a few hot laps and tt on VIR Full. It was OK. times were so so. not anything close to what we would have been lead to belive nor what we race at in the higher HP cars.

I think GT Live has some possibilties for the future. but IMHO their cars ( or at least the ones that came to VIR) would not be competitive out side Spec Miata, or Honda Challange NASA races

I have no idea which cars, Yes I saw Hondas or Mazdas, some Subies, but the HP, no idea. There times on VIR Full course were OK. Nothing competitive with what we run in NASA, let alone REAL GT ( ex Trans AM) cars.

The Super GT cars were a full 30 sec a lap slower then we run and that would be 45 sec lap slower the GT( ex trans am cars)

[mountainstar]

I can't believe a super GT would cost $3 million to build. I thought that was conceived as a low cost formula for manufacturers in Japan.

[notguilty]

lets not forget the $100,000 dollars that went missing after they event!

[chemhead1]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I can't believe a super GT would cost $3 million to build. I thought that was conceived as a low cost formula for manufacturers in Japan.

That has not been the case for years now. While the main goal for then JGTC was, as you said, to cut costs for teams that couldn't afford the floundering Japan Sports Prototype Championship, you also have to remember that the JSPC was pretty much a runaway show of "who gets to be first behind the Nissans R9x's and Porsche 962s?" Also, car count numbers for the JSPC were pretty bad.

Sure the costs have skyrocketed again, but there are a few things in the series that are helping to tackle it, mainly:

1) From the start, it was well known that the GT-A were going to be Draconian about their performance balancing between teams. Before it was just weight handicaps (remember, unlike other series that only handicap for race results, SuperGT handicaps for race results, QUALIFYING results (top 3 per class) and even for setting FASTEST LAP (top 3 each class)) So while other series, fans complain that the series organizer make judgements not clarified in the rules, at least in SuperGT it's more than well known to everybody that "this is the case, deal with it." Seems to work, especially since there doesn't seem to be much in the way of manufacturer domination (Nissan is more or less in a slump, but so was Honda a couple years back before they switched to their current naturally aspirated powerplant.)

2) If there's anything keeping the competition alive in GT500, it's the manufacturers. In any other series, one or two manufacturers might have 2 entries each, so it becomes something like a 4-car show. Almost every Nissan, Toyota and Honda in GT500 is essentially factory backed (sans a few privateers, but again, none of them are really in much of a situation as Hitotsuyama Racing were in when it was their own team and their own car (McLaren F1 Longtail), or JLOC with their Murcie R-GT before moving to GT300, more on that in a bit). Because the entire GT500 field is being supported by the big 3 major manufacturers, we're not likely to see a situation similar to 1999 FIA-GT.


But the cool thing is that there is still plenty of room for privateers in GT300. Unfortunately, because of some teams interpretations of the rules, unless someone stands up and points it out, it's showing signs of being a mini-prototype class. For instance, the Mooncraft Shiden. All it is is a Lexus-Riley Daytona Prototype with new bodywork. At least when the ASL Garaiya started racing in GT300, there was an actual road car. But there is room for the little guy to still be competitive, like the JLOC Murcielagos, anyone fielding a Porsche GT3 or Vemac 320/350/408R, and even true privateers fielding their own car instead of a customer car, like the RE Amemiya RX-7 or the Jim Gainer Ferrari 360s (definitely NOT the 360s you're used to in other GT racing....).
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL

* Race in the US under SCCA PRO RULES( which I agree are not always the best) with FIA Officials, Not Super GT rules or bring THEIR OFFICIALS. Support races ( which this was) gets paddocks that are avalible, which are never that good.

As far as I know, there wasn't anything noticeable about the paddock to complain about (besides the garages not being next to the pitwall, but that's overdoing it). And for the GT Live at California Speedway, it actually was the main series. D1 and the Time Attacks were the support. (Dude, the JGTC cars actually got the NASCAR garages!) There were no other events running the weekend of December 17-18, 2004 there that I was aware of. NASCAR, IRL, Grand-Am and AMA Superbike seasons were over well by then.

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

* Track conditions, what a little bump scares them? Jezz good thing they did not race on Sebring. . Narrow race tracks are just part of RACING. Pass where they can.

No, California's infield was pretty gnarly, actually. I remembered seeing the JGTCs really bottom out nastily and jitter around on the back straight when they had their Sunday Sprint race on the infield short course. The infield consists of just the original access roads modified for racing (and throw a couple chicanes and voila!). I personally like it. But for drivers who are used to driving the OLD FUJI SPEEDWAY, if they say it was bumpy, I'd take their word for it. As for overtaking, these guys race at Aida. They're used to tight quarters, no worries from me.

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Street races or parking lot races take too much MONEY to set up. Look how long it takes to set up Long Beach, Houston, St Pertersbug or Tornto. Let them race as supporting races for CART ( or what ever it is called ) Or the IRL. Both need all the help they can get.

True. Although they have the money to back it up, it wasn't going to viable unless it got some killer publicity before hand. And I mean this thing had to be something along the lines of a SEMA car show with a race as well.

As for them running second best to Champ Car or IRL? Hah. Might as well spit in their faces and hope they run an event on your neighborhood block.

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

*** There were spectators? (Sorry could not resest that one.) Spectors go where the PROMOTOR puts them, and not always into the paddock to watch.


If there was support as you say, why did they cancel the East coast races? or the BIG question why have the not been back?

Even if some didn't come for JGTC (as highly anticipated as it was on the tuner forums online), there was still D1. Look how they have to pack them in at Irwindale. It was just as crazy for the D1 event at Fontana.

The reason they canceled the East coast events was because:

1) Like I mentioned, JGTC and the GT-A just got frustrated with the SCCA's handling of the event (although maybe the JGTC shouldn't had thrown in things as the 2 mandatory stop rule and the fact that the stops didn't count until after lap 15 (WHAT?)), and frankly they dipped their feet in the water and the water was too cold for them. They (apparently) saw how our U.S. promoters handled it and decided it was best that they didn't continue.

2) Paramax (the U.S. promoters) were afraid to book these East coast venues ahead of time because they were afraid that the JGTC would bail out if Fontana bombed. I didn't think it bombed, but the GT-A thought otherwise. Paramax saw this and decided not to book the events. There were never any events planned or booked. They would have LIKED to have a JGTC mini-series through the U.S., but it was never solid. Paramax made up for hyping up future possible East coast events and had the GT Live events with Grand-Am. I actually heard that people liked the Time Attacks at PIR.

[chemhead1]

Originally Posted by notguilty

lets not forget the $100,000 dollars that went missing after they event!

Umm, okay.

Post a news link or it didn't happen.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by chemhead1

I actually heard that people liked the Time Attacks at VIR.

They did. PPL loved them, just the times were very slow compared to what even spec Miatas run.

I did see or read something about the promotor Paramax not getting along with Sanction body ( SCCA-Pro) and the GT Association.

If I get some time I will go look at the old GT-A web site and boards to get their persective.

[minimangler]

silverstone 24 hour support?
i'm on holiday.

god damn.

[notguilty]

Problem is Paramax said that everyone got there money and everyone else said they were short changed. IF the promoter denies it and I've got the heads of other companies telling me that they didnt get paid. I'll go with the people I know then the promoter who came off shady in person.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by notguilty

Problem is Paramax said that everyone got there money and everyone else said they were short changed. IF the promoter denies it and I've got the heads of other companies telling me that they didnt get paid. I'll go with the people I know then the promoter who came off shady in person.

Paramax short changed a LOT off ppl and was told to go take a hike, and dont come back to REAL racing.

Paramax is or was a "Motorsports Entertainment Event Consulting Company" ie they had no Idea what REAL sports car racing was all about.

GT-A or as it is called now American GT Road Race Association, set the rules, and Paramax did not like the rules.

and the Idea of JPGT and Paramax inviting a few selected teams to compeate in the GT300 class was a joke. The GT500 cars would bearly keep up with the GT1 ( Trans AM cars)

The GT-Live we saw here on the East Coast was part of Paramax too. The acutally promotor was PAID in advance before they would host the event at the Grand AM GT / ST race.

So I think we are starting to see where the problem was, and it was NOT the SCCA or the GT-A.

Plus the GT-500 cars are more then welcome to join the American Road Racing Assocition ( GT-A) but will have to conform to the THEIR rules and SCCA-Pro rules. Not the othe way around. and 500 hp would not be close to competitive to these ex trans am cars.

[chemhead1]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and the Idea of JPGT and Paramax inviting a few selected teams to compeate in the GT300 class was a joke. The GT500 cars would bearly keep up with the GT1 ( Trans AM cars)

Especially seeing that the only cars that came as guests all competed in GT300, the only car qualifying was a mid-upper field Grand-Am Cup competitor (Stuttgart Performance's Porsche GT3 Cup)

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Plus the GT-500 cars are more then welcome to join the American Road Racing Assocition ( GT-A) but will have to conform to the THEIR rules and SCCA-Pro rules. Not the othe way around. and 500 hp would not be close to competitive to these ex trans am cars.

Yeah, but consider it's only air-restricted to 500hp. A factory built 3.5L twin turbo Nissan V6 is not going to put out JUST 500hp. I don't think we need to go back to Nissan's experience with turbo V6's (GTP ZX-Turbo, anyone?). Also remember that this same exact engine (with a few mods for fitting) was put in a Dallara LMP1 chassis for Rollcentre Racing. Although not that successful, I don't think a team would put an engine that was capable of ONLY ~500hp.

But another thing to consider is while Trans-Am/SCCA GT-1 (not LMGT1) cars have more power (to restricted GT500), GT500s are ridiculously grippy aerodynamically. Trans-Am/GT-1 are a lot stricter on aerodynamic body parts compared to Super GT. Super GT rules are pretty wide open because the main focus is more fan entertainment than cost (which should the manufacturers one day decide that it's too expensive for them to participate, it would absolutely KILL the entertainment value and the series in one fell swoop). So the series really wont care if all the cars are precision-sculpted million-dollar 100% race monsters as long as tons of fans show up and get really good racing, which they do. Trans-Ams aren't nearly as expensive at GTs, and are RC cars (pricewise) in comparison to Super GT machinery. And as we all know, these days, money = SPEED.

All I'm saying is if a Lexus-Riley DAYTONA PROTOTYPE is running in GT300, you can only imagine how further the technology is in GT500.

[RickP:Clio51]

Deal not finalised yet, but it would be 1 GT500 NISMO Z racing with the other boys in the Dutch Super Cars supporting the Britcar 24 hours.

I'm told by the man who knows that they are $3mm each to build. Don't forget each manufacturer is rumoured to spend $100mm per year on Super GT... they aren't doing that on a £3.50 car...

The car should be considerably quicker than a GT1 Aston or Corvette... although we may have to add a little weight to fit in with the top class of the Dutch Super Cars, it should still be a spectacular sight...

Will let you guys know if and when the final nod comes from Japan.
Cheers
Rick