[FIA GT] FIA GT racing in Europe and GT racing in America

[ViperACR]

Does anyone know why the Dodge Vipers are blowing away the Ferraris and porshes and every other manygacturer for 2 years in a row in FIA GT racing in Europe but are not to be found here in North america. There is only 1 Viper in Gt racing here in North america bit plenty of Corvettes.I am very curious to know why. is it becaue of the rules or what.

Thanks

[MaxSport]

Its because of the GM backed Corvette team. Not unlike Audi in LMP, GM are driving many of the potential privateer teams away with a giant budget and domination of the class.

The FIA GT needs to make sure that if they let Maserati, Porsche (not with the Carrera GT but a rumored mid engined car with 911 styling cues like the GT-1 97) or Lamborghini/Audi/VAG come in with supercars and factory teams they could have the same issues--again

Sportscar racing needs to find a way to have manufacturers spread the wealth between several teams instead of allowing one factory team to dominate and wreck things for everyone.

CART made manufacturers supply a certain number of cars if they were to participate. That way they were less inclined or capable of mounting a Joest Audi type effort that is bad for the sport.

Perhaps if each make had to supply six cars to worthy privateer sportscar teams then we would at least see a different Audi or Corvette win on occasion.

KM

[Burd]

The Viper certainly didn't blow anyone away in last year's FIA GT series. Vipers only won 3 of the 10 races, and Bouchut, the series champion, took only a single victory, and that was at the Spa 24 Hrs. The Prodrive Ferrari and the Lister Storm were both faster cars, they just didn't have as good of a finishing record and therefore fell out of the championship.

Also don't forget that the FIA-GT series uses weight penalties to maintain a balance between the teams from race to race. Without that, the Vipers likely wouldn't have had a chance.

[Fogelhund]

Just a point to consider Kurt.

is it becaue of the rules or what.

Perhaps if each make had to supply six cars to worthy privateer sportscar teams then we would at least see a different Audi or Corvette win on occasion.

Sounds like we are suggesting rules changes, which of course was the point of this first post.

There are a number of things to consider here.

1. FIA-GT appears to be the top level of sportscar racing in Europe, hence it gets the best teams, and more GT cars then ALMS.

2. The rules in FIA-GT and for that matter JGTC have the effect of balancing out the competition somewhat through weight penalties. It is a shame that this can't be done for the ALMS, as an interpretation of the ACO rules.

3. Regarding Kurt's point of minimum supply of cars. This can only apply to major manufacturers, surely this is not something that could be enforced to Lister. But an Audi, GM, Porsche definately. My suggestion would be that the factory could run two cars in the first year of a new program. From years two on, they would be required to sell/lease the cars for a maximum of X price, and be required to supply say 4 cars beyond the factory team at that price.

[veeten]

Of course that would make Pratt & Miller a pretty penny, while allowing them to further improve the "house" team. Then again, that's what allowed Oreca to succeed with the Viper, which later gave Chamberlain, Carsport, Labre, and others the chance to improve on those designs.

Curiously, it's the same direction that Ferrari is taking with the 550-575 Maranello and Prodrive, and with a FIA GT team just recently taking delivery of one of the early P&M C5-Rs for use, it should open new markets for them.

We also have to remember that these cars aren't cheap in their first few seasons, as most "bugs" are still being worked out. Fogelhund's 3rd point has a lot of merit, as it takes that into consideration.

[gttouring]

the vipers are not offered in the GM 'kit' form. From what i have researched You can by a 6 litre, even the 7 litre Gm racer and put it together, the Viper and its monster V10 are bought as a whole modified. So it may be a cost issue in the smaller teams in Speed GT, but there are older vipers in GrandAm and club races here, and they do put up a fight. Not to mention the new Daodge Viper GTS-R from the factory will be debuting soon so why hold on to an old image when the new one will come out with more power and reliability supposedly. It was on March issue of Road and Track in the states.

[veeten]

That, and not to mention the C6-R will be the further involvement in ALMS GTS by GM/P&M for '04 and beyond. This may also maintain the existance of the C5-R for privateer teams, both here and overseas.

As for the "kit" Corvettes, those are not the same as the GTS machines driven at ALMS, LeMans, or FIA GT. Those are based on the Z06 chassis. The similar to them by Chrysler would be the Viper ACR(American Club Racer) that were being sold as both a street/Race chassis, with equipment available through their MOPAR parts enterprise. This explains as to why there were a good number of them, and why Chevrolet chose that direction for the Z06.

[Burd]

Dodge isn't building a full-blown factory Viper GTS-R unfortunately. The thing they're putting out instead is being called a "Viper Competition Coupe," which is basically just a suped-up version of the stock car. It's mainly designed for club racing, the Speed GT series, and the Grand-Am Cup series. I could be wrong, but I don't think it would stand a chance in the FIA-GT series or in the Le Mans GTS class without some heavy modifications.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caran...view_viper.xml

[veeten]

Just read the Road & Track article, and the chassis pictured has some differences with the one in Car&Driver. Looking at the basis for it, there's still leeway for the chassis to be re-designed for FIA-legal racing. All it would take is for another partner to help with the chassis development, to which I say they should get in touch with Hughes de Chaunac, and re-kindle that "ol' flame" once again...

[veeten]

In case anyone's interested in seeing the whole story on the CC, here's the site with more info & pics.

www.vipercompetitioncoupe.com/home/home.html

[ViperACR]

Burd you are correct about wight being changes constantly in FIA GT racing. but it is the Vipers that are being penalized everytime they win. Don't forget which car has the monster 10litre engine in the series. The Ferraris cant compete against the Vipers and that is a fact

Originally posted by Burd
The Viper certainly didn't blow anyone away in last year's FIA GT series. Vipers only won 3 of the 10 races, and Bouchut, the series champion, took only a single victory, and that was at the Spa 24 Hrs. The Prodrive Ferrari and the Lister Storm were both faster cars, they just didn't have as good of a finishing record and therefore fell out of the championship.

Also don't forget that the FIA-GT series uses weight penalties to maintain a balance between the teams from race to race. Without that, the Vipers likely wouldn't have had a chance.

[ViperACR]

These are the guys that are behind the Vipers winning over the last few years. They were also the ones that were behind the Oreca Vipers when they dominated afew years in LeMans
http://www.caldwelldevelopmentinc.com/history.htm

[Burd]

Originally posted by ViperACR
Burd you are correct about wight being changes constantly in FIA GT racing. but it is the Vipers that are being penalized everytime they win. Don't forget which car has the monster 10litre engine in the series. The Ferraris cant compete against the Vipers and that is a fact

On the contrary, the #23 Prodrive Ferrari won three consecutive races in the 2002 FIA GT championship, a feat that is extremely difficult and impressive in a weight handicap system that adds 50 kilos to the car after each victory. The Ferrari was undoubtedly the fastest and best handling car in the series last year, the only reason it didn't win the championship was because it suffered a few too many retirements. The Lister was also much faster than the Vipers on a regular basis, and Campbell-Walter could have beaten Bouchut if he had a better co-driver than Springer.

Since you're obviously an ardent Viper fan, however, I suppose there's not really going to be much of an objective argument on the subject . I'll just say that I would be *very* surprised to see Bouchut or the other Viper pilots anywhere near the top of the standings in 2003. The Viper GTS-R was a great car in its day, but now it is well past its prime, and unfortunately I doubt we will be seeing the brand around much longer in any of the major sportscar championships.

[FIRE]

Is maybe one of the reasons that the racing versions of the Chrysler/Dodge Viper are build in Europe. Because of the success there are a lott of European teams that bought a Viper so maybe there aren't many Vipers left to ship to the US? Or is this reason to simple?

[KC]

Chrysler ended the Oreca factory team relationship after dominating the ALMS and winning LeMans as they did. Its nothing new. Chevy was ready to pull the plug on the 'Vette program and Pratt & Miller wrote a check to keep it alive. Now Chevy is reaping the benefits from a team they were ready to kill when they failed to beat Oreca's Vipers head on.

We have seen that the 'Vette program is a good one but capable of being beaten by the privateer Saleen effort. If the Saleens win the championship this year, a tall order, thew 'Vette team will probably go away or lose all factory support.

[ViperACR]

Burd I disagree with you about the Vipers being out of date. It is not the factories that reinvent new parts for the cars. It is the outside contractors Like Pratt for the Corvettes that do all the work. It should be real interesting. The FIA GT series in Europe seems to be far more interesting and competitive than than the GT series here.

Originally posted by Burd
On the contrary, the #23 Prodrive Ferrari won three consecutive races in the 2002 FIA GT championship, a feat that is extremely difficult and impressive in a weight handicap system that adds 50 kilos to the car after each victory. The Ferrari was undoubtedly the fastest and best handling car in the series last year, the only reason it didn't win the championship was because it suffered a few too many retirements. The Lister was also much faster than the Vipers on a regular basis, and Campbell-Walter could have beaten Bouchut if he had a better co-driver than Springer.

Since you're obviously an ardent Viper fan, however, I suppose there's not really going to be much of an objective argument on the subject . I'll just say that I would be *very* surprised to see Bouchut or the other Viper pilots anywhere near the top of the standings in 2003. The Viper GTS-R was a great car in its day, but now it is well past its prime, and unfortunately I doubt we will be seeing the brand around much longer in any of the major sportscar championships.

[Lee Janotta]

Would the C5-R be legal in any of the Euro series? With a chassis that doesn't resemble the production car in any dimension (almost entirely tube frame, longer, wider, lower, and with an additional ~1300cc over stock displacement), it's really more a siloheute than a typical GT car.

There just aren't any credible Viper teams here, that's the easiest way to explain it. Pratt & Miller and Prodrive are just in a class of their own (though Konrad put up a hell of a fight in the Saleen in '01).

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Would the C5-R be legal in any of the Euro series?

It is legal for some national Championships (e.g. Britain, Spain) where more lenient regulations regarding homologation are in place, but not for FIA GT. But in these series it would have to be restricted quite heavily. It's just not worth it. there is one genuine C5-R in the Club Europa series.
http://www.c5-racing.com/
http://www.club-europa.asso.fr/

[cybersdorf]

Nonsense, the C5-R will be in the Belcar this year.