Does a driver have to die!

[Kirk]

Well, I must admit that if JAG's argument means taking a back step, eliminating all the electronic aids, returning to slicks and reducing downforce and horse power, I agree whole heartedly. I have stated more than once that F1 must take a stand when it comes to technology ... and the time is very near. We do not want cars driven remotely, obviously, but it is getting precariously close to exactly that .... unfortunately nowadays one minor flaw in the overall setup formula (such as a failing tire) can easily result in a shunt similar to Ralfs. I guess the trick is to keep a balance where the best drivers can prevail and the techno geeks remain satisfied. Not an easy task since (too) many F1 fans, no matter what, want technology to rule!

[blackx]

The one safety issue worth discussing is the quality of the track personnel -- marshals, stewards and medical teams -- a huge variable that shouldn't be tolerated at this level.

Sorry eatapc.........I dont entirely agree with you there......


Marshals and trackside workers take instruction directly from Race Control....
The first thing they have in mind is their own safety...
The second thing is the safety of their fellow marshals..
Thirdly is the driver....

A marshal jumping the wall or climbing through the fence BEFORE the race had been neutralised would have most likely become another casualty....

Having a single car incident turn into a triage situation isn't going to benefit anybody..

If anyone is in line for critisism then it must be Race Director NOT marshals,Medics and such like...

[grumpy1]

Jag while I do agree with some of your points you seem to have missed a point.What caused this in the first place?
Did Ralf overcorrect an error?
Did he have a tyre that was going flat?
Did the suspention fail?
Given the serverity of the crash F1 designers must be praised for the strenght of the cockpit.For Ralf to walk away with minor injuries says the system works.
The point I want to make is it is not only the aero package that makes these things so fast.F1 designers are constantly looking for ways to improve the performance of the car.Part of that process is lighter and supossedly stronger componants for suspentions.
When the FIA introduced wheel theathers it increased the weight of the wish bones by 60grams.Doesn't sound much does it.To an F1 engineer you may as well say 10 kilo's.
By increasing the weight of the wish bone it affected the car in a couple of ways.1.increased fuel consumption(F1 cars tread a fine line with this anyway)2.more stress on the rest of the system due to increased weight.
The answer find a lighter product to make the wish bones from.The result has been that if a driver (ie MS) is careful when on the limit and doesn't bounce off every corner all will be fine.Treat the car badly and the suspention will fail.
The FIA as well as the designers have to shoulder the blame here.The designers for creating the problem and the FIA for compounding it by introducing parc ferme.Maybe its time parc fime was abbandoned and the cars returned to there repective garages after each stage of a GP.Surly the FIA can find a way to ensure no-one plays with an engine.

The Grumpy1

[grumpy1]

Originally posted by blackx
Sorry eatapc.........I dont entirely agree with you there......


Marshals and trackside workers take instruction directly from Race Control....
The first thing they have in mind is their own safety...
The second thing is the safety of their fellow marshals..
Thirdly is the driver....

A marshal jumping the wall or climbing through the fence BEFORE the race had been neutralised would have most likely become another casualty....

Having a single car incident turn into a triage situation isn't going to benefit anybody..

If anyone is in line for critisism then it must be Race Director NOT marshals,Medics and such like...

Brings me to my next point why didn't the safty car take the feild either on the high side or down pit lane.Surly they could have closed all garages until after the safty car pulled off.

The Grumpy1

[garcon]

I think Sam Michael has said it was a rear puncture - which at 180/190mph would have pitched him into the spin, possibly via the apron.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by blackx
Sorry eatapc.........I dont entirely agree with you there......If anyone is in line for critisism then it must be Race Director NOT marshals,Medics and such like...

I didn't mean to criticize the medics. I think we actually do agree that local race directors should not be jeopardizing the drivers with bad decisions. I'm in favor of a consistent team of F1 professionals rather than the ad hoc local approach we have now. My comment was in the context of the race not being red flagged as it should have been.

Originally posted by JAG
I've felt for the last 2 years that cornering speeds had reached an unacceptable level, yet this year speeds have increased even more.

There is no data to back up this concern of yours. The evidence suggests that the dramatic safety improvements made to the tracks, the cars and the drivers' equipment have made the increase in cornering speeds a virtual non-issue. The old saw that "speed kills" is grossly misleading at best -- in both racing cars and street cars.

One safety issue we haven't much discussed yet is the danger from carbon fiber shards puncturing tires. Isn't that the main lesson to be learned from the Indy accidents? The problem of higher cornering speeds is statistically very small compared to the hazard of carbon fiber debris.

[blackx]

I cant comment on that one Grumpy.....

That would have been the best situation.....
It may have been difficult to impliment immediately tho with teams siezing the moment (apart from B.A.R) and making a pit stop under yellows...

For sure it would have made things easier tho

[johnh875]

If there is any overreaction in this thread, it is the response that has been shown to JAG raising the issue of containing F1 speeds, from what I've read so far. I think the proposed Mosley changes show that one of the concerns they are looking at when framing future rules is overall speed of the cars.

I would say that part of the entertainment appeal of F1 is setting of new lap records, but surely this should not be a given each year at every circuit, it should be an achievement. As JAG illustrated earlier there have been large gains in lap times in the last 5 years which is unsustainable.

Yes the cars are stronger than ever but why negate those safety concerns by raising speeds? I'm sure prior to Imola 94 people were saying "F1 is safe, look at the big shunts we've had and the drivers have survived, that would never have happened in the past".

No one is saying make the cars crawl around the circuit, just that the speed increases in the last few years have overwhelmed the measures introduced to contain them.

[Gt_R]

Yes, lap records are now broken not because somebody drove better than the previous years, but because cars are improving at such terrifying pace.

I would think that unfortunate as it may be, single tyres is one of hte most effective ways to curb this problem.

I know this sounds silly, but maybe a single tyre manufacturer can produce a single type of tyres (maybe two or three types, controlled by FIA), and if other tyre manufacturers are eager to "advertise" in f1, they can make a commercial deal to replace the "brand" on the tyres.

In any case, one must be impressed with the safety of modern cars.. We have MS's accident at Silverstone in 99, Burti's in Spa, Diniz at Nurburgring, Giancarlos at Monaco, Ralf's at Indy, the huge T-bone at Austria... and a few more...yet all the drivers walk away without fatality..

[OVERSTEER]

I guess if the drivers want to be totally safe, they should take up Dominoes or crazy golf!

[Dan Fielden]

ohh dear has this argument not been put to bed yet lads. It is pretty petty don't you think, i mean Ralph is fine.

[Kicking-back]

Ralf is fine.

But there is a serious debate to be had about cornering speeds - and it was going on long before this accident.

[Greg Cummins]

I remember watching an Indy 500 a couple of years ago where they introduced a special safety wall that lined the entire first corner inside the concrete wall and has been used since. Why is this not used in the F1 race?

[ASCII Man]

Wouldn't have been much use because he crashed into the wall right after the first corner?

[Kicking-back]

That "SAFER" barrier stops shortly before (after on the oval) the point Ralf hit.

[Purist]

I'm kind of on a tangent here, but there is one big problem, and this goes back to the beginning of the thread. Yes, how slow is "safe," but more importantly, at least in modern society, seems to be the most important rule of mass media. Always give the people what they want. It's a sad reality in this instant, but a sport, even F1, won't matter much if no one (relative terms here) watches.

Back to the point at hand. Yes, the barrier ought to be extended further so that the next guy doesn't hit the concrete. Another thought, why not have marshalls (and perhaps a few medical personnel) stationed along pit wall so that if an accident happens there again, someone can get out to it more quickly, and hopefully better assess the situation sooner?

[TedN]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Ralf is fine.

Here is a good article on a system called ImPACT, used by Champ Car and IRL to determine the readiness of a driver return after a concussion.

Anyone know if F1 uses it or something similar?

Ted

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by TedN
Here is a good article on a system called ImPACT, used by Champ Car and IRL to determine the readiness of a driver return after a concussion.

Anyone know if F1 uses it or something similar?

Ted

Sid Watkins has a similar system, yes.

[Greg Cummins]

I guess my point wasn't really the positioning of the safety wall in the Indy 500, although it did extend beyond the exit of turn 1 to catch similar incidents, given that the F1 race is in the opposite direction you would think that the same considerations could be made for the exit of turn 13 if the safety wall was use. It just seems that if the option was available to the organisers, why didn't they use it?