Crashes... A question for you drivers

Digitographer · 29 Jun 2004, 09:34 (Ref:1019842)

We were at a kart meeting last weekend when a particularly nasty incident occurred and a driver was hurt. We were there to take photographs... that's what we do. I got some photos, not of the crash itself but of the marshalls running to the drivers aid, the ambulance etc etc. I did hesitate before taking pictures of the scene but in all honesty my thought process was simply 'show the marsalls in action' - I deliberately didn't take pictures of the injured driver - only the marshalls rushing to and at the scene. I didn't intrude or impede in any way.
Anyway - last night I had a series of phone calls from an irate person who was officiating at the meeting demanding that I remove the said photos from the web site, I was accussed of lying my way into the race meeting and being there under false pretences. I apologised
totally and immediately removed the offending images.
Anyway... My question is really to the drivers out there... As a photographer when an incident such as this occurs should I keep shooting or not? I'm really interested in the drivers point of view here. Appreciate your comments. Thanks

AlesiUk · 29 Jun 2004, 14:12 (Ref:1020156)

I dont think it is an issue really, any driver who is bothered by having his picture taken when he crashes better not have ambitions to go to the big leaugues. If you have a shunt,it will be photograhped and possibly televised. These things can sometimes be of great help in determing what caused a shunt.

yelodwg · 29 Jun 2004, 15:49 (Ref:1020228)

This is just MY opinion, but as long as you are not hindering rescue, why not shoot the accident.

On my TVRacer.com site, I show a racing scene that I change once a week. I work with a number of professional racing photographers and they have MANY photos on their sites of accidents. But I have never seen any closeup shots of injured drivers, just the car spinning, hitting a wall, or flipping.

Also, the photos you take can be used to determine exactly what happened and possibly in court proceedings.

I see no problem with shooting the marshals or anyone else rushing to the scene. But I am not a lawyer.

The question that comes to my mind is, was this irate person trying to hide something?

Tom Stephens
www.kartfinder.com
www.tvracer.com

Digitographer · 29 Jun 2004, 16:14 (Ref:1020262)

yelodwg,
Good question! - Perhaps I need to take another look at those pics!

#15 tkm 4/ · 29 Jun 2004, 16:25 (Ref:1020283)

I think like what alesiUK said is right as long as your not obstructing the marshal's/amburlances way you should have the freedom to take the shot's *unless its quite gruesome*

darcym · 29 Jun 2004, 16:41 (Ref:1020303)

why did you get accused of sneaking in etc etc.

marcus · 30 Jun 2004, 07:23 (Ref:1021038)

what a load of ******** mate , I would have told them to sod off , you took the pictures , you own the pictures.

I dunno about you sneaking in or being there under false pretences , obviously you know what the deal with that is BUT as everyone else has said as long as you dont hinder anything then there shouldnt be a problem.

I remeber I filmed a friend racing a while back and the 2 karts behind him touched and one flipped big time and of course I got it all on video , thankfully the driver wasnt seriously hurt but he gave me his address and number so i could send him a copy of his crash , he didnt care that I had actually filmed him lying there in pain with the kart on top of him.

seems a very odd situation.

I'd put the pics back up just to rile the clowns that rang ya

But then again I like confrontation

Digitographer · 30 Jun 2004, 09:11 (Ref:1021134)

darcym: We were invited to the event by a participating driver. When we arrived we immediately contacted the senior marshall and explained who we were and why we were there. We were given the usual safety briefing and then signed on (as usual). We always provide our own safety vests and adhere to our rule of one photographer out on the circuit one in the pit lane. We have radio comms between us at all times and always, always talk to the marshalls to ensure we don't endanger ourselves or anyone else. I think we're a pretty professional outfit.
I have absolutely no idea why we were accused of blagging our way in (hey! it's not like this was an F1 event) but I guess sometimes people over react and say things they shouldn't! ;-)

speedy king · 30 Jun 2004, 11:27 (Ref:1021293)

I personally did not see anything wrong with the pictures. Like said, the driver was never shown and they were all from a distance.

Unfortunately i was one of the drivers involved (interlocked wheels with the kart in question) so saw the accident very clearly and i was very shaken up, however those photos in my opinion didn't show anything particulary disturbing. However, of course if anyone involved dosent want the photos being shown then it's their right to ask for them to be removed.

My personal opinion only as a racer.

Thankfully the driver in question hasn't been too seriously injured however it's still bad. I've got in contact with him.

Digitographer · 30 Jun 2004, 13:45 (Ref:1021456)

Speedy King: PM'd ya!

yelodwg · 30 Jun 2004, 15:08 (Ref:1021563)

Sounds like you are very conscientious and take the time to let those in charge know your procedures. I am assuming that it wasn't the senior marshall who was irate and called you.

If it was someone else, I would have let them know you had permission and let them know what procedures you followed.

As far as the photos being on your site, I'd contact other photographers and ask them what they think. If you don't feel comfortable calling them, find a professional photographers' forum and post your dilemma.

I would certainly want to be informed as to what is right and wrong in this arena

Tom Stephens
www.kartfinder.com
www.tvracer.com

Antman · 30 Jun 2004, 20:23 (Ref:1021818)

I want to look at these pics but your site won't work from your profile

sf2001 · 30 Jun 2004, 20:56 (Ref:1021845)

we had a number of nasty accidents last year at a high profile event, the 5 nations (NC plate). i was a bit concerned about members of the public taking shots, however i just asked did they get shots of the accident. as yelodwg said, your footage even as stills can proove very useful should the accident end up in courts.

antman, if you add www. after the http:// then you get the website.

Digitographer · 1 Jul 2004, 11:41 (Ref:1022375)

Antman: I've removed the offending photos, but the rest from the event are there for all to see!
Comments always appreciated.

BTW: I've amended the address in my profile.

Cheers

marcus · 2 Jul 2004, 06:44 (Ref:1023318)

Digitographer , i hope you dont mind me doing this but it was suggested to me that I move this thread over to the Photography forum , I think you may get more opinions from behind the camera over there as well drivers in here.

There will be a re-direct in this forum to guide people to the thread still

PaulSands · 2 Jul 2004, 10:56 (Ref:1023570)

To be honest I think a lot of this is down to the pure emotion involved those close to the injured party were probably feeling very defensive and protective.
I was recently asked, fairly forcibly, to stop taking photos in the Mallory Park paddock of a damaged FF...nobody had been injured and it was purely to document the illustrate reports of the days action. I stopped and didnt use the pictures though on reflection I should've maybe stood my ground. Anyway the point is when people are wound up and upset they tend not to be the most rational.

Of course the whole issue could be related to copyright/licensing issues...I dont know how it works with karting but certainly with the current climate in car racing I wouldn't have been suprised in the slightest if you had been contacted by somebody if you hadn't actually pre-arranged your photography with the circuit.

mark_l · 7 Jul 2004, 14:21 (Ref:1029256)

If an official or marshal asks you to stop taking pictures at the scene of an accident, then you must comply. When you sign on you agree to abide by an instruction given by an official of the meeting.

It is also usually for a good reason as they will have a better idea of the seriousness of the situation.

I know most reputable and experienced photographers will just walk away from a scene as they dont want to be there as much as the driver involved. The biggest problem is the goulish spectators.

Stuart Hill · 7 Jul 2004, 19:01 (Ref:1029523)

Quote:

Originally posted by Digitographer
My question is really to the drivers out there... As a photographer when an incident such as this occurs should I keep shooting or not? I'm really interested in the drivers point of view here. Appreciate your comments. Thanks

having watched this thread with interest I would like to add a marshal's view.....

it goes without saying that; just as most tv companies do, you DO not "show" any images of a driver until one has some idea of their condition. This does not mean stop filming/shooting, just don't make them available to start with.

There are however some valid reasons for continuing recording the images:

1) the incident may result in legal proceedings and any images may be useful,
2) images of the marshal's reactions and actions are always useful for training purposes,
and finally........ assuming he/she is ok afterwards......

3) many drivers would like to know exactly what happened so that they do not make the same mistake again !!!!!!!

Having attended many serious incidents over the years, the one question that I keep hearing is...
"did anyone get any footage?"

so I would say carry on filming etc but do so with the driver's well-being in mind and only make those images available when:
a)asked to by a senior official at the meeting;

b)by a police officer;

c)you know the driver to be 'OK', or.....

d)when everything is obviously not as serious as first thought and us ghouls in orange want to take a look!!!

StephenRae · 9 Jul 2004, 09:10 (Ref:1031067)

I think you should keep on filming no matter what. I don't think officials on the spot would have the authority to stop you. Once taken the footage can easily be destroyed if it is deemed to be in bad taste....but who is to be the judge?
I don't know another driver who isn't fascinated by pictures of his demise...and if he is dead then any record of the tragedy will be of value, but perhaps not for publication.

Kelvin · 9 Jul 2004, 09:15 (Ref:1031070)

After this:
http://www.moto-build.com/silv04/silv04-08.jpg

I took this:
http://www.moto-build.com/silv04/silv04-11.jpg

I was asked by a marshal not to take anymore. I expalined I knew the driver
invloved and that he would not mind.

I think most trackside photographers know where to draw the line.

In the accident above, the driver was removed from car, put on strecther and taken to the medical centre. 30 mins later he was back in the paddock!!

On other sections of 10/10ths marshalls seek picture of themselves in action!

Kelvin

stefan · 13 Jul 2004, 09:48 (Ref:1035097)

That first photo's great. The letterbox format helps too. Glad everyone was ok.

ooo-arr27 · 12 Aug 2004, 18:03 (Ref:1064159)

I do a lot of motorsport filming - nearly all at Castle Combe which includes testing days etc. I have now reached the point where drivers (mostly local championship drivers) now ask for a copy of my seasons footage at the end of each year - which includes quite a lot of crashes and the aftermath recovery etc. I have not yet been asked to stop filming - but if I was, my reply would be that I know the driver(s) or that I know the drivers would be interseted in seeing the footage (which has happened on numerous occations). Even nastier accident footage would be filmed, if not nessesarily used in the season end tape. I have checked with the circuit and they are happy for the tapes to be distributed as long as there is no financial gain for myself.
I would be quite happy for any of my footage to be used in court if ever required.
At the end of the day I love motor racing, the drivers love motor racing and the more of it I can capture on film, for all to see, the better.

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