Arp F3 - Page 2

Redracer77 · 22 Dec 2004, 18:24 (Ref:1186105)

Mr S stop reading 10/10ths and get the North West review online!!!

Ian Sowman · 22 Dec 2004, 18:27 (Ref:1186108)

Part one is already online!

Lola · 22 Dec 2004, 18:41 (Ref:1186113)

No room in Monoposto for them

They could if they changed their engines. Be much cheaper to run...but they could be quicker in mono trim

reynard55 · 22 Dec 2004, 20:55 (Ref:1186226)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

they should join Monoposto as they only had 11 at one of the last rounds

I dont know where you gor that one from!!

for all the classes of mono the entries for the last few rounds of the championship were between 42 and 54. the two litre cars on their own had 23 at the last round!

I say let the ARP guys get on with it on their own

diz · 22 Dec 2004, 23:17 (Ref:1186348)

Quote:

Originally Posted by reynard55

I dont know where you gor that one from!!

for all the classes of mono the entries for the last few rounds of the championship were between 42 and 54. the two litre cars on their own had 23 at the last round!

I say let the ARP guys get on with it on their own

I think Red meant ARP only had 11, not Mono

**Stephen Green** · 23 Dec 2004, 08:04 (Ref:1186508)

Welcome to Ten-Tenths Reynard55

Redracer77 · 23 Dec 2004, 09:24 (Ref:1186565)

correct Diz, sorry wasn't very clear.

MikeHoyer · 23 Dec 2004, 11:26 (Ref:1186666)

ARP had quite a big grid when I saw them at Snet, quite a good race if I remember correctly.

SALEEN S7R · 23 Dec 2004, 15:51 (Ref:1186799)

Ive not been fortunate enough to actually see a ARP F3 race live, but in the past I have seen a few on Sky sports "world motorsports" programme, and I agree with Mike the racing did appear to be pretty good, most of the cars were pretty modern too, not up to the standard of the British F3 championship obviously, but great all the same. BTW, can anyone tell me the website adress for ARP F3? I found one last year, but for some reason cant find it again.

Ian Sowman · 23 Dec 2004, 15:54 (Ref:1186803)

Look further up the thread - but it doesn't seem to work.

reynard55 · 23 Dec 2004, 20:50 (Ref:1187033)

Quote:

Originally Posted by diz

I think Red meant ARP only had 11, not Mono

Ooops

There was me going in with both feet!

diz · 23 Dec 2004, 20:57 (Ref:1187036)

I might be able to supply a lot of 'extra info' tomorrow and an ARP F3 driver could well be registering with TT tomorrow, to tell you all "how it was / is"

Arty B · 23 Dec 2004, 23:12 (Ref:1187120)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Look further up the thread - but it doesn't seem to work.

Working again tonight if you go in through the link on Mark Bailey Racing albeit not updated since June.

Barry Pomfret · 24 Dec 2004, 13:49 (Ref:1187450)

I am really surprised by all of this. I have known James for some time, racing against him in Zetecs and working with him as an instructor at Rockingham. During this time I have always found him to be a pleasant, likeable and level headed guy. He is also a very quick driver who deserves to go further and it is really unfortunate that he has lost a well deserved championship win in this way.

Kicking-back · 24 Dec 2004, 15:26 (Ref:1187515)

If the story here is accurate, it sounds like he's been royally shafted.

The man inheriting the title must know he did not win it fair and square on the track.

dallarasuck · 24 Dec 2004, 18:06 (Ref:1187577)

I want to hear 1 good thing about ARPf3, come on, I challenge you!
The bad press I've heard isn't just about this incident, it stems back a couple of years. I've met an ARP driver that says James is an excellent driver and someone you can learn from if you can keep up with him.

Maybe they couldn't keep up with him?

Sportsmanship, that's what racing is all about, or is it money?

Also, although I haven't met James I've only heard nice things about him, this is from various people including some VERY good drivers.

Sounds fishy to me

Arty B · 24 Dec 2004, 19:06 (Ref:1187593)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallarasuck

I want to hear 1 good thing about ARPf3, come on, I challenge you!
The bad press I've heard isn't just about this incident, it stems back a couple of years. I've met an ARP driver that says James is an excellent driver and someone you can learn from if you can keep up with him.

Maybe they couldn't keep up with him?

Sportsmanship, that's what racing is all about, or is it money?

Also, although I haven't met James I've only heard nice things about him, this is from various people including some VERY good drivers.

Sounds fishy to me

One good thing? Most of the cars are shiny!

diz · 24 Dec 2004, 21:53 (Ref:1187648)

As promised, some correspondence from ARP F3 driver Steve Clegg to his fellow drivers, co-ordinators etc. Steve is happy for me to post this on here, as the affair is now in the public domain.

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:22 PM
Subject: 20 questions for ARP Management....

Dear Glyn, Keith & Tony

By answering the following easy questions you will be on your way to extricating yourselves from the situation you now find yourselves in with your code of conduct.....

1) If, as you claim, the Mallory Park start line incident, (12 April 2004), was so obviously the result of the 'reckless' and 'deliberate' actions of James Winslow. why did the Mallory Park Clerk of The Course not take any action against him?

2) You used the video evidence taken of the Mallory Park Start Line incident as your only piece of independent and 'irrefutable' evidence to support your case against James Winlsow. Being such a serious incident, why did you not have this video evidence put to independent expert analysis, in the normal way?

3) If the Snetterton Podium incident, (12 September 2004), was such a serious case of 'public verbal assault/abuse', why was this, (and the subsequent complaints), not immediately referred to the Clerk of the Course?

4) If the Snetterton Podium incident was really such a serious case of 'public verbal assault/abuse', why did people standing 20 feet away, not hear it?

5) If the Mallory Park incident was so serious as to remove all Winslow's points and issue a 'Final Written Warning', why did you then allow him the benefit of letting this round count as a dropped round?

6) Why is the ARP Code of Conduct not written in the same detailed and clear format as standard grievance and disciplinary procedures, such as those used in employment law?

7) Why does the ARP Management allow a club member, who competes in ARP F3, to also have a role in the decision making process of the Code of Conduct and the ARP Standards Committee?

8) Why, with such clear and well laid grievance and disciplinary procedures already in place with the MSA and BRSCC, does the ARP management and its Standards Committee, concentrate so heavily on punishment and not on promotion (there were only 11 cars on the grid at Snetterton)?

9) Why does the Motor Sports Association not allow the Code of Conduct to be included in the Championship Regulations?

10) Why was the action taken by ARP management over both the Mallory and Snetterton incidents not in accordance with paragraph 4.2, and sub-paragraphs 4.2.1, 4.2.2 of the Championship Regulations?

11) Why is being a member of ARP not a condition 'Competitor Eligibility' in the Championship Regulations?

12) Who authorised the ARP F3 website to be updated to remove all mention of James Winslow several days before the official notification of his removal of membership was sent to members via email on 2 November 2004?

13) What is the ARP Management doing to attract new competitors to the Championship and ensure larger grids for the 2005 season?

14) Please identify what, in your own words, is the '...big step forward...' the series has taken in 2004 and what the present ARP Management have done during 2004 to, again in your own words, 'ensure that ARP F3 punches its weight'?

15) Please clarify what the ARP 'Executive Board' is and what its duties are?

16) Please clarify what the ARP 'Advisory Board' is and what its duties are?

17) Why, after openly admitting that he had neglected ARP during 2002 & 2003, did Tony Broster then raise ARP 2004 Club membership fees by 37% to £275?

18) With an estimated annual income well in excess of £8,500 from members, why does the ARP not produce an Annual Financial Statement to all club members, as other clubs do, in the normal way?

19) Does the Management of ARP know how the 'law of contracts' applies to the club membership and the Code of Conduct?

20) Is the Management of ARP aware of recent European Union legislation?

Of course, you don't really have to provide answers to all these questions now. However, the next time you pursue an individual, citing your inequitable 'code of conduct' and employ your inept style of management to unfairly prosecute your case, the poor object of your vicious assault, in his defence, need only refer you to any of the above unanswered questions and you will find yourselves back in the same sorry mess you are now in.

Kind regards

Steve Clegg
ARP Membership number 07

I replied thus :

To: Stephen Clegg
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: 20 questions for ARP Management....

I think Steve Clegg ARP Membership number 07 will very soon become
Steve Clegg Ex ARP Membership number 07, never to be allowed to darken ARP's doors again.

Nice email Cleggie.
1. do Mono in 2005
2. sell your cars
3. or better still come back to the 'Friendly' NW FF1600

Regards

Diz

naughty me then!

mono - silly ride height, cars wont work
sell my cars - who would want to run them
come back to freindly FF - what and miss out on all this fun!

Regards Steve

diz · 24 Dec 2004, 21:59 (Ref:1187654)

An extract from a newsletter piece Steve wrote for me in 2003

Just a comment on Friday’s test day. With so many single seater cars on the track, even a 2.7something mile one, it seemed a little busy on occasions. I heard one comment about the Formula Fords getting in the way, but for my part, I only saw FFs jumping out of the way with apparent eagerness, not that they were obliged to of course. (One exception of course was JL, who quite rightly kept his line up Clay Hill, at least I had the perfect view of his car rotate through Druids and corner in a way that only a Formula Ford can do). And why should they give way to an F3, merely because they have more power and more grip, and in some cases far less ability than many NW Formula Ford racers. In particular, one yellow and black 2000 Dallara that spent Friday learning how to block faster F3 competitors. (I happened across this portly chap while visiting the toilets and the subject of his driving style came up in conversation. His comment went something like; at first he hadn’t seen me, but I was OK once he had! To which my reply was; I couldn’t tell the difference in his driving between when he had seen me and when he hadn’t). Anyway, he then progressed to actual contact on Saturday with a stunning feat during qualifying, taking the only other yellow Dallara off the track while going in a straight line down the avenue. Honing his skill yet further, I believe he was involved in the first lap incident with the same other yellow car, which caused yet another ARP F3 restart. (Mark Dwyer! I mention no names. Oops, I just did, naughty old me).

Anyway, I qualified 5th and my race finished after only a few laps when a rod end on the rear right top wishbone threw a protest at being bounced too many times over the kerbs at the Foulstons chicane. I could have given you a race report from my vantage point at Knickerbrook, but, apart from watching Steve Allan and Richard Marsh fight for 1st and 2nd, I was in fear of falling asleep on the tyre wall so I retired to the heather covered banking by that nice little pond in the infield that I hadn’t appreciated before.

diz · 24 Dec 2004, 22:01 (Ref:1187655)

And finally ..........

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Final Comment

Final Comment……

We don’t feel that it’s right for the present situation to carry on into the New Year and the desire is to bring this to an end. This is our intention and the following represents our final thoughts on what has gone on, and the way forward.

As we understand it, an MSA Tribunal has decided that the Code of Conduct and membership of ARP forms part of the Championship regulations and therefore, as James Winslow’s membership of ARP had been withdrawn as a result of action taken under the Code of Conduct, then he was not entitled to compete at the final race at Donington, or have any part in the ARP Championship.

What they did not make judgement on was the actual action taken under the code and if it was fair, reasonable and correct. (They couldn’t have done this because we understand that Winslow wasn’t there to plead his case, like in a normal court of law) And we also understand that this wasn’t why the MSA Tribunal sat, they sat to judge if membership of ARP was a part of the Championship regulations.

As we have maintained all along, we have no objection to a code of conduct, the Championship needs one. It is the way in which this one was prosecuted which is the issue. With the exception of Mark Bailey Racing Team and ARP Management, the members of ARP Formula 3 have been dissatisfied with the way this has been handled and have expressed their feelings both verbally and in writing.

In brief, (because we’ve been here many times) a driver, who could have won the championship, was, at the 11th hour, excluded, merely because of something he said on the podium. Now, some people have said that, because of the ferocity of the words used and the situation, this is a very serious offence requiring the severest punishment, (i.e. banishment from the ARP), however, the same people have said that if only he had apologised, then the matter could have been cleared up without further action under the Code.

How bizarre, either, it was so serious to warrant the harshest action under the code, or, it merely needed an apology to set things right and, if so, it can’t have been so serious to warrant action under the code!

What really happened, is that someone throughout the season, rightly or wrongly, had misgivings about the way James Winslow was driving and, not getting satisfaction if, or when, they went to the CofC at each meeting where the incidents took place, (and we don’t know if ever an official complaint was lodged by payment of a fee) then they took the matter to ARP.

In our opinion, this is where it all went wrong, rather than ARP management monitoring Winslow throughout the season and letting him and everyone else know about their concerns, ARP management sat on its hands for months and did nothing right up until just before the very last race, when they seized upon a totally unrelated issue of verbal abuse as a way of getting him out. (This can’t be a satisfactory result for Richard Marsh, who it now appears, won the Championship because his main rival used bad language, not because their alleged poor driving standards were in question.)

Well done ARP Management, no matter how well intended you believed your actions were, what you did was the equivalent of constructive dismissal: We can’t sack you for your driving standards because we haven’t the proof, but we’ll sack you for swearing, a totally unrelated matter. (Swearing is not addressed in the code of conduct).

Unwittingly, the management of ARP has brought its own championship into disrepute and created a fragmented membership. However, what we would now like to do is give the APR management our backing into 2005, to encourage and help them in their pursuit of moving the ARP Championship forward, by increasing grid sizes and therefore raising the profile of clubman F3 racing.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to Glyn Keith and Tony and the drivers and teams of ARP Formula 3.

Regards

Steve Clegg

kickstart · 24 Dec 2004, 23:36 (Ref:1187693)

If harsh words said on the podium in the immediate aftermarth of a race meant that you were thrown out of the championship then James Hunt, Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna and MS would have been written out of the record books.
I have never heard of such a disproportionate punishment

dallarasuck · 25 Dec 2004, 00:37 (Ref:1187700)

like i said:

A.R.P. - R.I.P

i hope james winslow becomes the next f1 driver just to give them the finger, good luck in 2005!!!!!

(this extends to grids for ripf3)

Kicking-back · 26 Dec 2004, 22:57 (Ref:1188171)

Sounds like they want a series for fat businessman and don't want aspirational drivers.

darcym · 27 Dec 2004, 12:29 (Ref:1188378)

Steve Cleggs too good for ARP.

Get a renayrd and welcome back to sporting racing.

maddogf3 · 27 Dec 2004, 12:50 (Ref:1188389)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Well, the ARP F3 website (www.arpf3.co.uk) doesn't seem to work...

This is my first time on a forum so please excuse any unprofesionalism. I know what happened to the website ,why it was removed what happened about the James Winslow versus Richard March (re Mark Bailey Racing and ARP hierarchy) If any of you want to know the truth I will tell you . It is quite a long story and it has brought the series into dispute with nearly every body but the above named people thinking how childish it was to KICK JW out . After all He is the best driver in the series .He qualified on pole for I think, every race , followed by some very poor starts unfortunately,which led to him charging through the field .His times were consistantly quicker than anyone else .I know I had the watch on him .
He alone was the cause of every team in the ARP having to up the anty to be within any chance of matching his times. Absolute credit to R March he is a very very Quick driver, even he had to start altering his car to perform better .If someone doubts it take a look at qualifing times on ARP website from last year and compare with this year .That is If Website comes back on line .Oh, by the way its it run by MBRacing ( perhaps that's one of the reasons it was removed ) the official line is due too legal reasons connected to the protest of JW racing at Donnigton when he had already been kicked out of the Championship For Swearing at R Marsh (Swearing I ask You ) on or near the podium .He didn't even" hit" him . Thats all, for the moment I have Christmas to enjoy and my wife wont let me have the computer on .