2006 blue book - ref h/climbs

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by Woolley

As a very untechnical person on such matters, how much difference would chemical softener make on a hillclimb anyway? And does it make tyre life better or worse? Hill climb tyres are pretty soft anyway, and it's not as if you're trying to make a durable compound grippier without compomising longevity as in racing.

Wooley, as i understand it the tyre softners rehydrate a worn tyre so that it will extend its life longer when the performance starts to drop off.
It does not make a new tyre any softer.

Dave

[rescue dude]

I do have it on very, very good authority that there WILL be random fuel test's next year.
A not so little bird told me.

[Steve Wilkinson]

If you want to be pedantic most cars would fail scrutineering IF there were proper Scrutineering Bays at all hillclimbs.

The sight of a scrutineer at Doune with a block of metal on the end of a stick so he could check ground clearances was turned into a Marx Brothers farce when you looked at the part of the paddock where he was attempting to do the check. I also noticed that the checks were not done on all cars running slicks.

So we have a double dilemma. Rules that are contradictory and impossible to enforce.

On the subject of which cars were illegal at Doune - possibly any car that competed without a mirror of at least 50 sq cm that would give a clear view of the rear?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

On the subject of which cars were illegal at Doune - possibly any car that competed without a mirror of at least 50 sq cm that would give a clear view of the rear?

Yeah, it's a pain when you have to reverse them into a parking spot after a spin!

Dave, thanks for that. Potentially, then, chemicals can make tyres useable for longer if I've understood it correctly? For speed eventing I'd have thought that would be beneficial to most copetitors.

Which makes me wonder (not being technical in these things). What does cover general regs for hills/sprints? Part of the interest to me is the weird and wonderful variety of vehicles which are competitive. Clearly there's all sorts of local/championship/class regs. Does the blue book over-ride these where there's a conflict or not, because clearly a lot of the MSA regs about racing are really unnecessary for speed events as Steve's post beautifully highlights. As long as it's not a safety issue, or stupid expenditure, then does it matter? It's a branch of sport where people will spend what they want in order to go faster whether it means they'll win or not, and you can't buy the extra bravery or talent you need to be ultimately competitive.

So the checks - ride height is good - I've seen the results of high speed suspension failure possibly due to excessively low ride heights. You wouldn't want to risk it, so enforce it.
Minimum weight - because a lighter car is potentially a weaker car (see Steve Owen for how to build a chassis that seems able to withstand almost anything - good work, Steve.)
Fuel, because rocket propellant is hugely expensive and can make a difference. So test it and make sure it came from a commercial pump. Perhaps organisers provide it at cost so that everyone's using the same? Don't know how practical it is.
Silencers. Because we don't want to annoy the neighbours. Unfortunately! (Ooh, that Ferarri sports car...)
I presume certain dimensions are prescribed? Wings, etc.?

Anything else worth bothering about, or would you go for a free-for-all beyond the above in keeping with the old Shelsley Special idea. After all, what rules could you write that would allow someone like Nic Mann to build such amazing beasts? And you really wouldn't want to outlaw that kind of inventiveness.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Woolley

So the checks - ride height is good - I've seen the results of high speed suspension failure possibly due to excessively low ride heights. You wouldn't want to risk it, so enforce it.
Minimum weight - because a lighter car is potentially a weaker car (see Steve Owen for how to build a chassis that seems able to withstand almost anything - good work, Steve.)
Fuel, because rocket propellant is hugely expensive and can make a difference. So test it and make sure it came from a commercial pump. Perhaps organisers provide it at cost so that everyone's using the same? Don't know how practical it is.
Silencers. Because we don't want to annoy the neighbours. Unfortunately! (Ooh, that Ferarri sports car...)
I presume certain dimensions are prescribed? Wings, etc.?

Anything else worth bothering about, or would you go for a free-for-all beyond the above in keeping with the old Shelsley Special idea. After all, what rules could you write that would allow someone like Nic Mann to build such amazing beasts? And you really wouldn't want to outlaw that kind of inventiveness.

The trouble with any regulations are they must be enforceable.

Ride Heights: these must be checked on a calibrated level surface. To enforce this a calibrated level surface would have to be available at every venue preferably not just championship ones. Also it would be vital to check ALL competitors in each of the classes where a minimum ride height rule applied.

Minimum Weights: these must be checked on calibrated scales, this could be done using calibrated transportable units that could be set up in a Scrutineering Bay (more expense for the organisers/venue owners).

Fuel: this would have to be checked in some sort of portable laboratory. This would require as well as noise scruutineers a pair of fuel scrutineers. Alternatively you could take fuel samples from each car as they complete their final run of the day so that they can be checked thoroughly at a later date.

All of this takes money which in Speed Events is in short supply.

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

The trouble with any regulations are they must be enforceable.

Ride Heights:
Minimum Weights:
Fuel:

Thinking about this from a single seater point of view

Ride heights don't seem to be that much of a problem as nobody wants to take there expensive floor off and be faced with expensive bills to repair replace. eg Barbon last year

Minimum weights, This isn't a control formula, so having a minimum weight limit doesn't achieve anything, Would you outlaw the PCD which weighed 208kgs iirc. We all try and build our cars to be as light as possible ,but not at the expense of safety (i hope anyway )

Fuel : commercial pump fuel doesn't have the consistency of octane rating to be viable to use with the full race engines, why risk a 50k engine for a bad batch of fuel. I'm not advocating the use of nitro, just that commercially available race fuel is available for use with highly strung engines and is a consistent formula.


Noise limits and wing sizes are all covered by the rules/regs so we are all covered there by the same standards

Without the freedom of regulations to build your dream we wouldn't have the likes of the GWR predator.

Dave

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Woolley

. . .
Silencers. Because we don't want to annoy the neighbours. Unfortunately! (Ooh, that Ferarri sports car...)
. . .

On the contrary, the Regulations should prohibit the use of a silencer on any competing car.

Full marks to Renault for their end-of-a-V10-era sound run after the last GP.

Regards

Jim

[Woolley]

Secretly I agree with you, Jim, but I fear we'd have nowhere left to play. Both the BRM and Keith Harris's Chevron were highlights at the Shelsley centenary but I believe some of the residents of Worcester were disturbed from their lawn mowing.

[mcb666]

http://videos.streetfire.net/player....3-692B102901E3

[mcb666]

It's my hundreth.

.............comments invited ...


Richard

[blackx]

Originally Posted by DaveK

Without the freedom of regulations to build your dream we wouldn't have the likes of the GWR predator.

Dave

Thats whats been on my mind as well Dave...
In the start hillclimbing,as with any branch of motorsport I guess,was one guy pitting what he had built against what another guy had built....
Simple as that....
Now obviously there needs to be some common ground with regards to what can and cant be done but to me it seems that the rules and regs may be starting to get a little bit OTT....

Lets try and take a step back and try and get back closer to what motor sport was when it was first born...

As Dave rightly says.....
If rules and regs were too stringent then we wouldnt have things like The Predator.....Nick Manns 4 wheel drive helicopter etc etc.....

[Steve Wilkinson]

So are you advocating a free formula for hillclimb and sprinting?

With for example:
1) No ride height restrictions
2) No minimum weight
3) No restrictions on rear wing widths and heights
4) Fuel open to any type
5) Tyre softener allowed

However the MSA would have to ensure that the devices being run were safe and fit for purpose. Therefore there would have to be regs about:

1) Roll Bars/Cages
2) Noise Limits (now a health and safety issue)
3) Materials used in construction
4) Safety regulations with respect to fuel cells
5) Racewear
6) Brakes
7) Electrical
8) Timing Strut
9) Fire Extinguishers
10) Engine Equivalencies
11) Category Specific Regs
etc.

[Woolley]

Sounds fairly reasonable. I do wish racewear included gloves. Apart from banging your hands against things, the times I've seen an uncovered hand come out to try to stop a car rolling over. Do yourselves a favour and cover it. Even thin material helps.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

So are you advocating a free formula for hillclimb and sprinting?

With for example:
1) No ride height restrictions
2) No minimum weight
3) No restrictions on rear wing widths and heights
4) Fuel open to any type
5) Tyre softener allowed

However the MSA would have to ensure that the devices being run were safe and fit for purpose. Therefore there would have to be regs about:

1) Roll Bars/Cages
2) Noise Limits (now a health and safety issue)
3) Materials used in construction
4) Safety regulations with respect to fuel cells
5) Racewear
6) Brakes
7) Electrical
8) Timing Strut
9) Fire Extinguishers
10) Engine Equivalencies
11) Category Specific Regs
etc.

Sounds good to me...
As I said there would need to be SOME rules and regs but let the inventor invent and show the world,or at least the Worcestershire countryside,what he/she can do...

[Steve Wilkinson]

Right then all it needs is someone (NOT ME!) to put together a proposal for the Speed Events committee. It would probably have to have the backing of ...

A) the drivers
B) the constructors (Gould/Pilbeam/Force/OMS)
C) the Championship Co-ordinators for the British Hillclimb and the British Sprint Championships

So relatively easy then!

[Moose Baiter]

Seems to me Steve that he current regs are about as loose as you are ever likely to get in terms of freedom of expression for inventors/extrovert engineers. I suggest we leave well alone as any suggestion is likely to spurr the powers that be into having a closer look and clamping down on f1 up the Garden path or flat garden path driving.

May the moose be with you.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Right then all it needs is someone (NOT ME!) to put together a proposal for the Speed Events committee. It would probably have to have the backing of ...

A) the drivers
B) the constructors (Gould/Pilbeam/Force/OMS)
C) the Championship Co-ordinators for the British Hillclimb and the British Sprint Championships

So relatively easy then!

Is anything worth having if its so easy to get?
Its all pie in the sky anyway as nothing that is ever said on here is likely to be acted upon/implemented....
Its nice to dream though...

[Woolley]

TBH, sounds pretty much what we've already got. Sensible rules, sensibly applied. A benevolent dictator who runs things because he loves it. Lots of like-minded competitors and officials who understand that a great meeting is only as good as the party on Saturday night.

I knew there was a reason I loved it other than just fast cars.

[Megashed Teaboy]

Having gone from running hillclimb and sprint cars to now running circuit cars i have seen how easy the speed events people have it regards to rules and regulations and the ability to stick to them.
Every event we have done this year the top3 from the race and a few random cars are picked up by the championship scrutineer and are checked for a regulation of some sort. We have even had to strip the top end of the engine after the first day on a 2 day meeting, this meant that we were late to the pub, but also a paddock is not the best place to keep race engines clean while rebuilding them, but it means the level playing field. Now i am not moaning about this though as it means that eveyone knows that if they cheat they will be caught, and as such keeps things good and competative with no back biteing (well not much anyway). The scrutineer is a fair chap and as long as it is not blatent cheating he just says get it fixed for the next race i.e floor bolt broken thus under the ride height.
I do miss the friendlyness of speed events though as it is possible to go a whole weekend without speaking to any other teams and that is the way to try to keep speed events, fast inventive and fun, with the competative element thrown in.

Cheers

Rich Whitefoot

[rescue dude]

In response to Woolley,You don't even have to wear shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Midland Rescue found out when attending a "shout" at Prescott the driver was helped out of his car and only had sock's on!!!!!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

In response to Woolley,You don't even have to wear shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Midland Rescue found out when attending a "shout" at Prescott the driver was helped out of his car and only had sock's on!!!!!

Yes but......were they flame retardent socks? If so it was probably better than the guy at a VSCC meeting I saw hop out of his car with patern socks and tennis shoes!

It's all relative, and it's usually a relative who is taking the PI55!

[rescue dude]

No they weren't.

Lovely man made fibre.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

No they weren't.

Lovely man made fibre.

Toasty Warm!

[b1ackcr0w]

Anyhoo, to get back to the point.


One aspect I have not yet seen mentioned is... It might not be the effect on competition that caused these agents to be banned. There might be several other reasons like (for instance)

1. They might have an adverse reaction on the track surface.
2. They might cause the tyre to wear and fail at an unpredictably fast rate. Even with my limited grasp of Chemistry, I can deduce that by definition a tyre softener would change the compound of the tyre. And it would be near impossible to apply evenly. Wouldn't that cause weak points in the tyre? The tyre people spend and awful lot of time reshearching the compound and contruction of the tyre to make it as safe as possible. Doesn't changing it seem like a very silly and dangerous thing to do?
3. A tyre softener is likely to involve a powerful solvent which is difficult to store or apply safely.

One of those is bad enough, I all three are possible, the ban has some significant benefit IMO

[bugs]

Happy New Year