Customer engines

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by esorniloc

That is not correct there was a private entry Ferrari in the 1961 French grand Prix, for Giancarlo Baghetti (with a Ferrari engine - Ferrari 156).

He won the race for a team called FISA not Scuderia Ferrari.

OK,so no other "car" other than................

[browney]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Agreed.No other team,other than Ferrari,has ever won in F1 with a Ferrari engine.

Does that really prove anything about customer engines though? Even if Sauber had more power out of an engine than Ferrari, would they have won races (Chasis and driver talent are significant other variables)?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by browney

Does that really prove anything about customer engines though? Even if Sauber had more power out of an engine than Ferrari, would they have won races (Chasis and driver talent are significant other variables)?

There isn't much support from Ferrari.Red Bull say that last season they had six technicians on hand at each race.This season,with Renault,they have sixteen turning up at the tests!

Sauber often complained that his customer engines were around 500 rpm short of the ones Ferrari used.But it probably wouldn't have made that much difference anyway.

[Leighton Irwin]

Let us face it. All engines will be on a dyno. The factory will keep the best ones. There might not be much difference but there will be some. Whether the difference is enough to stop a good car from winning is another matter.

[Dudley]

Originally Posted by ZXRobert

Greetings, folks. A question about customer engines (Ferrari, Renault). Are the engines supplied to other teams a "B-spec" version, or the same that the supplying teams use?

Thanks.

They have to be identical this year since you can only run the last unit you as a manufacturer submitted.

In previous years they were usually lower spec.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

Let us face it. All engines will be on a dyno. The factory will keep the best ones. There might not be much difference but there will be some. Whether the difference is enough to stop a good car from winning is another matter.

A good manufacturer though would ensure all engines get built near enough to the same. Building 10 engines and saving the 2 most powerful for yourself may be fine and dandy, but its even better if you engineer the other 8 up to the same level.

[Raglanparade]

is that the block itself ? or the manifold, exhaust and everything else ??

[Gt_R]

It is a pointless argument isn't it?

There's no need for customer teams to make much fuss and complain. When the deal between a engine supplier is struck with a customer team, they know the deal. 6 engineers, 2 engineers, the state/age of an engine and the number of updates/services the customer team will get, and any political/sporting implications (if any, for the conspiracy theorists). If the customer team signed, he's happy with the deal when he signed.

In the early years, Sauber had contracts to buy year-old engines, and were supplied with such. The engines were re-branded, and really, Ferrari's agreement with them were strictly business. In fact, Sauber were said to even have tried to make improvements to those engines on their own.

As the relationship matures further, in the last few seasons of Sauber-Ferrari relationship, Sauber had the privilge to start the season with the SAME engine spec (not year-olds) as the Ferrari team. It didn't make them suddenly the front-runners, did it?

Often, a customer team cannot surpass a works team simply because it takes more than an engine to make a winner. And Ferrari cars are simply more advanced in every, if not most aspect, than an equivalent Sauber. And usually, better drivers too.

People can complain how Ferrari doesn't do this or that for a customer team. But let's face it, even if it's a business and Ferrari's in it for the money (i can't foresee any team, not even Renault, will supply engines at a LOSS without a benefit in return), Ferrari's supply of engines had allowed teams like Sauber/Prost/etc to compete with a competitive engine. And engine manufacturers like Mercedes has been doing nothing besides empty promises of $10mil engines to Minardi for politics.

500rpm. I don't think that explains why a Sauber is 2 secs off the pace of Ferrari.

And in order to supply customer teams, Ferrari have created an additional department of engineers and staff, expanding to exclusively handle engine customer teams. Can't blame them for a lack of trying.

Renault may offer a better deal, but i don't think in recent times Renault can claim itself to be the most committed to the sports, let alone as a supplier.

[Dudley]

And that's precisely why I don't see Spyker beating anyone regually. Objectively Aguri have better drivers and almost certainly a better car. STR have the same engine but probably better drivers and depending on what they have to do to the RB3, the balance of probability is that the STR2 certainly won't be worse than what will be an almost untested Spyker when it arrives in Oz.

[Snrub]

A big part of the customer engine issue is that the engine, mechanical and aero components of the car will worked upon as a unit. Each aspect is compromised to produce what the team believes will result in the fastest overall car. A team with a customer engine is forced to design their car around what their given. Their car's ability to be aerodynmaic is effected, downforce is effected, center of gravity, weight distribution, moment of inertia, suspension design, etc. Not only these factors on their own, but each of these factors influences the design of the others. In other words a given engine changes everything and can cause substantial ramifications. We know that Newey wanted Renault engines because they were more compact than Ferrari engines. Obviously Ferrari feels that their engines are perfect for their appliacation, so its not necessarly possible to state that the Renault engine is "better" than the Ferrari engine because of the impact on the entire car.

Originally Posted by Dudley

They have to be identical this year since you can only run the last unit you as a manufacturer submitted.

That rule seems somewhat unclear to me. They've established a 19k RPM limit. I read an article on ITV where Ron Dennis says that McLaren/Mercedes have managed to develop more power at 1000rpm less than last year's output. How is that possible? The regulations were suppose to prevent any engine design changes with the exception of those that promoted reliability and in that case would have to be FIA approved.

[Dudley]

You're allowed to make certain changes up to (I think) 1st of March but I'm largely certain each manufacturer will only have 1 submitted design at the end of it all.