Montoya: There is always a #1 at McLaren

[Mr V]

How comes Wrex only materialises when there is a JPM thread?

You guys make me laugh, you really do. JPM gets asked a question, or, in this case, a few questions. He answers them, in an honest way, praises Lewis and Fernando's talent, doesn't critize the team or say anything derogitory.

And he gets labelled a fat, has-been F1 reject?

This from the same posters i see posting how boring the current crop of F1 drivers are because they are all too scared to speak their minds for fear of upsetting their team bosses or sponsers.

Get a life fella's.

[Sodemo]

Such a shame Montoya is not in F1 any more.

I really think he would have shone in the cars of the 90's with wide slicks which could be overdriven to a degree and still be quick.

My enthusiasm for the sport took a bit of a nosedive when he left. He still has some of the best car control I have ever seen. Still, im glad that I saw him race trackside in 2002 and 2004 at Silverstone GP.

[Knowlesy]

Yes, I would have liked to have seen Juan in cars of that era too. He came close enough in the modern cars.

Anyhow, what has happened has happened. JPM is F1 history and that's that. This, however, does not remove his voice on issues such as this.

[JeremySmith]

This is a sad thread to be honest. Some of the insults thrown at Montoya are not necessary and serve no purpose at all.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by marcel82

having a guy develop the car doesn't mean he's #1

That's true. Coulthard was the main developing driver at McLaren, but he never had the highest priority in the race.

[Adam43]

Apart from when he was ahead.

Actually I think the main development drivers at McLaren have, recently, not even had a race seat!

[pottiella]

Montoya may have been bitter, but I don't think it was entirely without reason....but it's worth noting that he and Fernando are mates, so its likely he will see it from Fernando's point of view when looking at his own experiences at McLaren.

Just a theory....

[davyboy]

Surely the best person to ask the question about driver parity in McLaren is David Coulthard. He was part of the longest driver pairing in history, which happened at McLaren. He has nothing to loose by speaking his mind about McLaren either. Has he said that Lewis has received preferential treatment ?

On the subject of Montoya ; I was watching the NASCAR race from Sonoma yesterday while I'm here in the US and I was thinking what a weak impression Montoya has made in NASCAR this year. Up until this race he was the only driver to compete in all races this season and never lead a lap ! His drive in California was entertaining, but nothing special. His position out front only came about through a series of yellows that fell his way and a massive amount of luck on fuel mileage. He didn't drive his way to that win at all. In fact Robbie Gordon's car was the class of the field and he had the measure of everyone. The yellows didn't work out for him and he finished down the field. Such is the way NASCAR works.

I know JPM is an emotional fellow and hopefully this win will give him the filip he needs to do better in NASCAR. He has the capability and the demeanor, but he just needs to translate it into some on track action.

[Knowlesy]

This has meandered off topic, but you do realise he is driving a Ganassi car? They are so far off the Hendrick and Gibbs cars it's a joke, especially when running the CoT.

You expect him to make a massive impression or win on an oval in that team, first season out? Top 20's are a miracle. I wouldn't expect JPM to be in contention for oval wins (in Cup) for a year or two yet. He's good but he's not bloody Jesus. There is a lot of learning to do.

The best thing to look at is where he is compared to his teammates, Reed Sorenson and David Stremme. He is ahead of both, which is better than I personally expected at this stage if I'm honest. For someone with no stockcar experience, I'd say it's a reasonable first stab.

Anyhow, minor head explosion over.

DC: has he not said before about Mika's slight "team preference". To be honest, if I was DC, I wouldn't say anything that could be construed as saying Lewis is the apple of Ron's eye, because he'd be condemned as a bitter ex-McLaren driver. There is no point in bothering whatsoever, no point in speaking. Just stay silent DC.

[davyboy]

Well that could be the case alright, but you'd still expect a Grand Prix winner to blow the pants off the NASCAR contingent, particularly people like Sorensen and Stremme who aren't exactly 'world class'. The difference between the Ganassi Dodge and the others isn't that much. I mean its nothing compared to the spread across a GP grid.

All off topic I know... but what the heck.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I mean its nothing compared to the spread across a GP grid.

Is the spread that wide in F1? Currently, you are looking at 2.5 seconds in qualifying, thats between Fernando, a World Champion in the best car on the grid, and Albers, a journeyman, in the slowest car on the grid.

[Molotov]

I wouldn't be surprised if at this point in the season that Hamilton is No. 1. The publicity generated by Hamilton right now is pretty crazy, now imagine if he won the WDC. This would bring tons of attention to Hamilton and Mclaren, alot more than if Alonso won the title.

Hamilton wins = tons of publicity and probably alot more sponsorship.

Alonso wins = the situation pretty much stays the same.

From a straight business perceptive it's alot better for Mclaren if Hamilton won than if Alonso won, there's no questioning this.

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by Molotov

I wouldn't be surprised if at this point in the season that Hamilton is No. 1. The publicity generated by Hamilton right now is pretty crazy, now imagine if he won the WDC. This would bring tons of attention to Hamilton and Mclaren, alot more than if Alonso won the title.

Hamilton wins = tons of publicity and probably alot more sponsorship.

Alonso wins = the situation pretty much stays the same.

From a straight business perceptive it's alot better for Mclaren if Hamilton won than if Alonso won, there's no questioning this.

sadly, you are right. What astonishes me is how Alonso's achievements are thrown away so easily, and what he will achieve should he win. Is it a reflection of his calibre if everyone just expects him to walk in and win a 3rd straight title...at an age that Schumi won his 1st?! Its a strange phenomenon all of this:

For both drivers its an all or nothing situation; If Alonso wins the title, he'd become the first driver in history to win 3 straight titles from his debut, only the second driver since Fangio to have done it in 2 different teams consecutively, and never mind the fact he'll only be 26 by the end of this season...and if he doesn't win the title, he'll be forever undermined as the world champion who got beaten for the title by his rookie teammate, who will incedently take his record for youngest ever world champion. If Lewis wins, of course he takes that record along with the only rookie in history to have won the title on his debut...but he wont have that chance next year.

Ok, so maybe neither of them are thinking as deeply about what they will or won't achieve by records; but I reckon Alonso's challenge to win 3 straight titles after moving teams is a far larger feat than Lewis', and its a lot to ask for, yet the publicity will not reflect the achevement if he did win it - and as rightly said, the publicity will be far greater if he didn't achieve it to make way for Lewis' achievements.

Its like a journalist said, a lot is being made of Lewis' young age and what he's achieving at 22, but it seems easy to forget his teammate is a double world champion at age 25. It says alot about who is likely to generate more publicity out of the two!!

[alonso11]

Maybe what he tries to say is that he used to be number one at Mclaren too

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by pottiella

but I reckon Alonso's challenge to win 3 straight titles after moving teams is a far larger feat than Lewis'

Oh I don't think so at all. In 2007, the challenge facing a first-season-rookie to just survive in F1, let alone get a points finish, let alone get a podium is absolutely incredible. To win a GP in your rookie year is phenomenal feat and to win a championship in your rookie year [with a double world champion as your team mate], unprecedented. The challenge facing Lewis Hamilton usurps that facing Alonso by a long margin.

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Oh I don't think so at all. In 2007, the challenge facing a first-season-rookie to just survive in F1, let alone get a points finish, let alone get a podium is absolutely incredible. To win a GP in your rookie year is phenomenal feat and to win a championship in your rookie year [with a double world champion as your team mate], unprecedented. The challenge facing Lewis Hamilton usurps that facing Alonso by a long margin.

Ah, but this is again you taking it at face value; ie Lewis rookie, Fernando double WDC, therefore Lewis should by normal measure not do well and Fernando far greater a prospect for the championship. It is at this point that you have to look at the details of circumstance:

Lewis is far from any normal rookie by what definition an F1 rookie is coming into a team maybe a year testing at most, or a new team, not so good a car to contend with, and then the mental endurance needed to sustain a high enough level in a poorer car that the team giving the rookie a chance will keep them in F1 etc. Lewis may be new to F1, but he isn't by any means new to McLaren's progression to the MP4-22, or the team, or have to worry about surviving in F1 when being in a Spyker or Torro Rosso might undermine a rookie's true potential. Then there is that bridgestone issue - its not that he has used bridgestones that gives him an advantage as such, but that he doesn't have to adapt the way his biggest rivals (minus Massa) have to, because Kimi and Fernando's disadvantage at have been so darn good the last few years growing up and developing an optimum driving style to Michelins, is that they have the biggest hill to climb to reverse it compared to other drivers on Michelins.

I don't take anything away from Lewis getting 7 podiums from 7, and winning races etc; all I'm saying is that the achievement of doing so is less "phenomenal" as everyone is putting it considering the environment he has come into...or more appropriately the environment he has not had to step into at all, and instead has grown up and been moulded in.

On the other hand, for once I will say that one of the things standing in Alonso's way is handing the surprise of his teammate doing as well as him, which he can't have been prepared for - never mind the fact Lewis is part of the family and he has only entered. But he's likely to get over that...he did with Trulli and he's older, wiser and more experienced now. However, minus that issue, if McLaren were still running on Michelins I would agree 100% that Alonso should be expected to overshadow Lewis completely, but the situation is way too convoluted to simply compare Lewis and Fernando as Rookie vs Double World Champ.

I just can't agree with the disproportionate comparisons of Lewis with others; Fernando, other rookies (immensely unfair) this year, of the past, and past champions. I hold nothing against Lewis, but like it or not, the guy is the most well prepared rookie in history, and to have no rivalling team (as Ferrari falls away), it takes an awful lot of pressure off him when his double world champ teammate is the new kid in the team, not him. He knows it too, and THAT is why he has a psychological edge over Alonso, and we are see him gain over Alonso's other problems adapting to other changes he's facing.

All things taken into account, that is why by virtue of circumstance I think it is a greater feat for Alonso to win 3 straight titles (which lets not take lightly considering, not only is winning one or two consecutively very difficult to do, but also that only 2 others have ever done it in 3, and nobody from their debut) than Lewis winning the world championship under the current handicaps of his rivals.

just my humble opinion.

[davyboy]

I know the points we're discussing here are a diversion off topic, but interesting nonetheless. Maybe its worth starting another thread for the next post on the subject if we feel the topic's got some mileage in it ?

Back at the ranch ! You're right, Lewis is the best prepared F1 rookie there's been and the old adage that results are 90% preparation and 10% perspiration has never been truer. But preparation is different to experience and entry to F1 is a daunting process irrespective of what the contender's been through before. Let's not forget that Lewis was expected to burn the first half season mid-grid gaining that experience. The performances he's delivered were not at all expected and have caught everyone, including McLaren, off-guard.

For a comparable - look at Heikki. He's been through a serious development programme with Renault. I met him at an F1 test in Silverstone a couple of years ago, we were both standing at the end of the Hangar straight. I had a good chat with him about what he was up to. It would have been be hard to argue back then that he hadn't been well prepared for entry to F1 and I honestly expected him to replace Fisi shortly afterwards. He didn't though, Renault felt he needed more time. His debut this year was pretty much what you'd expect from somebody of very high caliber. I think the difference between what he and Lewis have accomplished has to be put down to something more than preparation.

[Born Racer]

Let's not forget that Lewis was expected to burn the first half season mid-grid gaining that experience. The performances he's delivered were not at all expected and have caught everyone, including McLaren, off-guard.

True. But pre-season, I did predict, on this very forum, that Hamilton would challenge Alonso much more than many thought. *showing off at my guessing correctly here, and deflecting attention away from the fact that I also thought Raikkonen'd be ahead of Massa much more than he has been*

[davyboy]

You'll need to improve your inside information on Ferrari for next year... and get down the betting shop

[Dutton]

I think what davyboy is trying to say is, despite it all, Hamilton looks a bit special. I would agree with this. With Lewis we are seeing the blend of talent and application (stuff is done efficiently, and time is not wasted).

He pays attention to things in a way that only those drivers truly "switched on" do. The future is bright so as long Lewis, and his support structures, keep on doing what they have been doing all these years.

Who knows what the future holds, though, and F1 can be a fickle beast at times.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think the difference between what he and Lewis have accomplished has to be put down to something more than preparation.

Quality of the car aswell

[Dutton]

Drivers are quite capable of underperforming in machinery that should do better.

That Lewis is not doing this, and not doing so against the reigning, back-to-back, double-WDC, is an achievement.

Put it this way: do I think DC, Fisi, and the like, would be capable of doing what Lewis is doing? I have not seen any evidence to suggest it. Lewis is currently giving evidence on his case, and to be doing so immediately is impressive irrespective of anything else.

That doesn't mean I think Lewis is God, but it does mean I think he deserves to be given a fair bit of credit for his current performances.

[Knowlesy]

No Dutton. Lewis is god.

[Bononi]

God giveth God taketh...


Hallowed be thy name. Nothing is sacred anymore !