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7 Jan 2010, 05:42 (Ref:2609252) | #201 | ||
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Well, Nationwide and Trucks have long schedules as well (35 and 25 races respectively), though each race isn't as long as for the Cup guys.
The reason other series here don't do longer races, above anything else, is that they can't get the TV time for full broadcasts of longer races. The issue of race distance also gets amplified with other series, because road courses are so much slower in average speed than 1.5-mile and over ovals. The two clearly shortest Cup races, in terms of mileage, are the two road course races (Sears Point and Watkins Glen). They do 110 laps of the short, 1.949-mile course at Sonoma (214.39 miles total), and 90 laps of the short, 2.45-mile course at Watkins Glen (220.5 miles total). Even the Martinsville races are longer, as they do 500 laps around that 0.526-mile oval (263 miles total). P.S. And if NASCAR was real stock cars, where some technical freedoms and advancements were actually allowed, I bet the attrition rate from mechanical issues would make the racing just a haphazard as LM type endurance racing. Only trouble is, with all the fender banging in NASCAR, even less of the field would be around at the finish. |
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8 Jan 2010, 00:10 (Ref:2609801) | #202 | |
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Relative to whom? That's just the damn dumbest, most arrogant (and, as long as we are using the characterization, idiotic) sentence I can remember reading. We are all a bit dumber for having been exposed to it.
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8 Jan 2010, 01:20 (Ref:2609828) | #203 | ||
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The only timer sportscar racing garners mainstream attention is when manufactuer's use their financial muscle to promote events and put together advertising campaigns. Sportscar fans follow the cars, outside of Le Mans the actual event or series isn't a major factor IMO, that's why FIA GT1's at Laguna Seca and the first PLM were so successful. If the Daytona 24hrs accepted ACO cars, and the major teams showed up, it would overnight return to it's status as second only to Le Mans, likewise if Grand Am bought Sebring and Road Atlanta, these events would fall off the radar for the internation audience and many home grown fans. |
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8 Jan 2010, 01:53 (Ref:2609835) | #204 | ||
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On the GT side anyone with a Le Mans program would want to be represented at Sebring and PLM for marketing purposes, just as they want to be represented at the Nurburgring 24hrs. At this stage your already at the 15-20 car point, LMP3 and GT3 type cars could fill the rest of the grid with cars that are campaigned in numerous events across North America. On the one hand people talk about the ALMS being visible and attracting mainstream audiences, but these audiences are only concerned with the fight at the head of the field. In fact I believe that's all most sportscar fans are interested in, that's why we welcomed Audi vs Peugeot in the LMS and Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, the rest is window dressing. IMO the LMIC will eventually include all classes, it's relationship to the LMS and ALMS will work simlar to the WSC and SAT1 Supercup/Interseries, most serious Le Mans players will want to be part of the big show. |
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8 Jan 2010, 03:51 (Ref:2609850) | #205 | |||
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Which is why they need to be encouraged to run in the ALMS and LMS, not provided ways not to run in them. |
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8 Jan 2010, 04:07 (Ref:2609852) | #206 | ||||||
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Does IMSA Matmut have a marketing reason to advertise in North America? How about Gulf's European Division? Or Dunlop's European Division? Why do privateers who pay for this out of pocket have a marketing reason to be there? Better yet, please list all the LMS GT sponsors who would have great ROI from Marketing themselves at PLM and Sebring. Quote:
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How many ALMS events have you been to Jag? Do you understand that businesses that pay out more than they take in, eventually cease to exist? Do you understand how the ALMS makes money? If you don't, go here -> http://www.lastturnclub.com/ Read Operating Revenue and Costs of the American Le Mans Series and IMSA - Part 1-3 |
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8 Jan 2010, 16:23 (Ref:2610061) | #207 | ||
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I do expect the GT1 and/or GT2 classes to join it. But the others classes are meant for small-scale privateers, and I believe that they shouldn't be encouraged to visit other continents unless they switch to higher classes.
I don't understand the LMP3 thing either (unless JAG means LMPC), but the ALMS GTC class is obviously a GT3 with brand restriction (Porsche only today, possibly Audi in the future), and either an open GT3 or a restricted one could be added to the Euro Le Mans Series if GT2 cars get too costly. |
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8 Jan 2010, 16:46 (Ref:2610073) | #208 | |||
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Certainly we can agree that there would be no ALMS as it currently sits, and that the Panoz group would be out of the picture. That leaves us with new track owners (NASCAR?) and maybe a new series (or just Grand-AM?), which is not likely to follow ACO direction. Then there is no LMIC in North America. No ALMS = no GTC, no LMP-C. Where do these cars come from then? I should probably exit now, I've gone in circles enough. |
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8 Jan 2010, 17:13 (Ref:2610083) | #209 | |||
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L.P. |
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8 Jan 2010, 18:12 (Ref:2610109) | #210 | |||
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(sigh) |
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8 Jan 2010, 18:47 (Ref:2610123) | #211 | ||
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The above is also no answer to the important Asian market. You believe this all down to the economy, I don't, I believe it's a more fundamental problem with the structure of the ALMS, dwindling P1 and GT1 fields were masked by the arrival of Porsche and Acura P2's and fine GT2 battles. You yourself say the ALMS may not see out 2010, regardless of the LMIC, your prediction everything else could fall like a stack of cards is precisely why Le Mans, Europe and Asia have to do what's best for themselves. |
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8 Jan 2010, 19:28 (Ref:2610140) | #212 | |||||
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Ugg... I said I wouldn't post again, and here I am.
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The GT1 fields were never big enough to have dwindled. Ok... sure from 4-5 to... none... but then half of that went to GT2... count the GT's overall.. Yes, there is a fundamental structure issue with the ALMS. Too tied to ridiculous ACO decisions. Quote:
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8 Jan 2010, 19:56 (Ref:2610149) | #213 | ||
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TWK, in the developed world, US academic scores are poor to say the least. There is also a damn lot of willful ingorance on the part of Americans about the rest of the world, and even about how our own country works. It would NOT surprise me in the least if a far greater percentage Latin America, and possibly even Europe, knows how the US political system works compared to the percentage of Americans who actually know how their own system operates.
And as for attention span, it's funny how even though a football game can last four hours, most plays probably don't even last 10 secons, and then, because we weren't paying enough attention for even that short a window, we have umpteen "instant replays" (and every one of those comes in "slo-mo" too, lol). Ok, back to being a little more serious on the actual thread topic. There was mention not long ago by a few that manufacturers should be required to contest one of the three continental series in order to be eligible for the LMIC. My thought is that any works (manufacturer) team should be required to run one of the continental series to be eligible for Le Mans itself, and if you become eligible for LM, you're then allowed to take part in the LMIC. Constructor teams, like Oreca, Zytek, WR, etc, or very small automakers, like TVR, Morgan, Mosler, Saleen, etc, would be exempt from this stipulation. Of course, I'd really like to see mandated ACO inspections to prove the existence of, say, five complete customer cars BEFORE the works team is permitted to take to the track in ACO-rules events. JAG, I know that this doesn't cover the Asian market, but that's kind of a moot point while there is still nil for ACO racing in Asia anyway. North America is a major market for the manufacturers even now, and the economy IS a big reason why the automakers don't have their P1s over here full-time. And don't think collapse of the continental series will leave Le Mans uneffected, or do we need to revisit Le Mans from around 1992. In 1991 and 1992, there were fewer than 40 cars that made the start. From 1988 up to 2007 or 2008, I think there was but 1 full grid at Le Mans (50 cars started in 2002), and now, of course, a full grid is once again 55 cars; way back when, a full grid was 60 cars, but who knows when the last time was that that many cars even made it for the Le Mans Test. |
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8 Jan 2010, 21:10 (Ref:2610182) | #214 | ||||
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As a fan of the ALMS and its accessibility to me the fan in terms of events, TV, Internet etc. it would be hard for me to say I would sacrifice the ALMS for a World Championship (call it what it is) that is not guaranteed to be covered in the U.S. Chris |
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8 Jan 2010, 21:20 (Ref:2610187) | #215 | ||
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Sure.... and IMSA is paradise on earth!
There are plenty things wrong with ACO but the problem over there (North America) is to have a bunch of 'old frogs' (murphy dixit) telling you what you should or not do! Get ALMS a separate set of rules, it sure wont be the first time, or second, or the third.... and maybe, those 'old frogs' will create a separate class for ALMS cars. It's the natural way... The world has F1, you have Indy. The world as WTCC, you have Nascar, The world will have LMIC... the world as kilometres and kilograms, you have miles and pounds... If this is a simple business question, than all this discussion was completely futile. ALMS fans 'demand' a strong series with strong entries (pilots an team), well, we over here also do! So... may the best win, because someone wont agree to share (LMIC). One thing is certain... having the best pilots and teams all concentrate in the ALMS is, first of all, good for the ALMS not for sports car in general. |
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8 Jan 2010, 21:27 (Ref:2610190) | #216 | |||
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What?! LOL The world is bigger than the US borders... |
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8 Jan 2010, 21:49 (Ref:2610205) | #217 | |||
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You are misinterpreting post by taking them out of context and applying its meaning to your own views. |
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8 Jan 2010, 23:07 (Ref:2610247) | #218 | |||
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8 Jan 2010, 23:17 (Ref:2610249) | #219 | ||
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8 Jan 2010, 23:22 (Ref:2610254) | #220 | |||
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OT but... While I agree with him, taking Purist comments out of context and applying them to me is insulting. You don't know anything about me and I about you. This is a two way street, so to speak. There are as many misconceptions about Americans as Americans are ignorant of others. |
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8 Jan 2010, 23:44 (Ref:2610260) | #221 | ||
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LOL...
Sorry for disturbing the king of the forum! Last edited by LeMans.pt; 8 Jan 2010 at 23:57. |
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8 Jan 2010, 23:54 (Ref:2610263) | #222 | ||||
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9 Jan 2010, 02:03 (Ref:2610291) | #223 | ||
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Asia on the other has at least half a dozen home grown manufactuer's, most with a strong Le Mans heritage, but to get something off the ground a lot of time and money needs to be invested. |
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9 Jan 2010, 02:41 (Ref:2610303) | #224 | ||
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The issue with the ALMS and this whole thing is that a series will NOT survive over here on just two or three races. There has to be more than that, or there will be NO races run to roughly ACO regulations in North America, period. It's reasonable to say that for a series to survive in North America, it's simply a requirement for it to have at least 6-7 races per season. Otherwise, people don't know it even exists, the series falls off the radar, it can't get sponsors, can't get cars, and either dies completely or is absorbed by somebody else.
JAG, are you sure you're not confusing Asia with Japan? Acura/Honda, Datsun/Nissan, Toyota, and Mazda are all Japanese. And unless I'm forgetting a very short-lived Mitsubishi effort, I don't think ANY other Asian automakers have even been to Le Mans. As far as I'm aware, the Daewoo, Daihatsu, Suzuki, Subaru, Tata, Kia, and Hyundai brands have never been to the French classic. Last edited by Purist; 9 Jan 2010 at 02:51. |
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9 Jan 2010, 04:18 (Ref:2610318) | #225 | |||
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I can assure you that myself and the others that have posted in defense to the ALMS (let's not forget our Canadian friends that show up in great numbers) have what's best for sportscar racing at heart. We are all here posting because of Le Mans, sportscar racing Mecca. It is in no way, shape, or form, crap. What I feel may not being conveyed strongly enough is the dire straits of the ALMS. If the ALMS fails for whatever reason, be it the LMIC or a list of other reasons, the biggest loss will not be teams or sponsors (IMO) but the tracks. I think Sebring and Road Atlanta would be swallowed up by Nascar, losing their connection with Le Mans all together. This is the major concern. We (N. Americans) want to be involved with international sportscar racing, but if we lose the ALMS or PMG we potentially lose that connection. I think that the loss of Sebring and PLM would be a huge loss to international motorsport, therefore, what affects the ALMS is or should be a concern to all fans. Arrogant? Maybe. But you gotta pull for the home team right? |
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