Discussion about a World Cup, originally started in the "F1 in schools" thread in F1

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

A few things, not just for young people but for other countries and consolidating the lower level fans I can think of are
...
Some sort of World Cup (an event, not an A1-style series) - a properly organized one, using a popular set of technical regulations (most definitely not their own, like A1 had), with a format that allows many nations to compete with multicar teams. This especially is a key point for countries that have a strong national team sports tradition where motorsport needs a bit of a kick. Each ASN (e.g. the MSA for the UK, FFSA for France, DMSB for Germany) would be responsible for running the team, not the local friendly crook/footballer/failed politician/pay driver. The FIA should ensure that the event is on FTA TV, too.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I'm surprised I haven't had "that's not going to work" thrown at me for suggesting a world cup (I agree it would be difficult, but nowhere near impossible).

Originally Posted by jab

It would be good as a one off, I think - perhaps 10-12 2 car teams, run by privateer teams, but participating in a knockout-style format. But perhaps not for this thread

I agree that a knockout style format is a good idea. Perhaps it could be either twelve or eighteen three car teams, with several knockout rounds? Perhaps run it over two weeks every year, the first one having a group stage (three groups of six), the top four in each going through to the semis, with the final six nations going through to the final. If there were enough nations, you could have a second tier and promotion and relegation. This would help squash some of A1GP's issues - nations would be in the competition on merit, using a set of cheap and common technical regulations (I suggest a new FIA standard Formula Junior using carbon tubs and 1000cc bike engines), and as it would be at most two weeks in late November/ early December every year, it would be possible to get better drivers in - possibly F1, but there would be issues with that.

[jab]

Bit too much there, I think

- Numbers: 3 car teams is too many. At most, it'll be around 12 2 car teams, maybe 15 if you push it. Otherwise it'll just get too expensive for what it is

- Cars: Why not just use the A1 GP chassis? They're available

- Length of time: 2 weeks? No, has to be a one weekend thing, if not a one day thing

What I was thinking of is something similar to the old FIA World Touring Car Cup, but on a lesser scale with a slightly different format. I'm thinking:

- 12 2 car teams - 2 drivers of that nationality plus with a privateer team from that country running it (DAMS for France, Carlin for Britain, Sauber for Switzerland, Addax for Spain etc)

- Random draw of split into 2 fields and grids

- 2 sprint races for 6 teams (12 cars)

- top 3 teams from each (using points scoring system) go through to the Final

- grid for the Final is set by the finishing orders from the races (like the Gatorade Duels at Daytona - setting each side of the grid)

- the Final would be longer and have a pit stop (A1 style with hardly any mechanics) as well

- there is a winning driver (the race winner) and a winning team (the team that scores the most points in the Final)

I'll put together a proposed line-up for you

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by jab

Bit too much there, I think

- Numbers: 3 car teams is too many. At most, it'll be around 12 2 car teams, maybe 15 if you push it. Otherwise it'll just get too expensive for what it is
- Cars: Why not just use the A1 GP chassis? They're available

The first and the second are inter-linked. The A1GP chassis would only ever be used once per year, in this event. What I propose is something that is smaller, less powerful (so it is open to more nations), and can be used throughout the year. What I propose is a international Formula Junior, not dissimilar to SCCA Formula 1000, but with carbon tubs. Think Formula BMW, but with several chassis, lighter cars and more power (due to using bone stock 1000cc sportbike engines). Yes, this does mean setting up that formula, and it does mean cars that wouldn't be as fast as A1GP machinery.

- Length of time: 2 weeks? No, has to be a one weekend thing, if not a one day thing. What I was thinking of is something similar to the old FIA World Touring Car Cup, but on a lesser scale with a slightly different format. I'm thinking:

... snip ...

Two consecutive weekends, or possibly one week with weekday night races. I'm not averse to the latter, but weekend races are preferable.



Here's what I'm thinking.

• Each ASN to decide who runs its national team - either one team, or they could do it as a co-operation between several, or maybe even do it in-house (very unlikely).
• Either two consecutive weekends or one week. Preferably a temporary circuit.
• Either twelve or eighteen nations, randomly drawn in to groups of six.
• In the case of twelve teams, there would be semi-finals comprised of two legs and a final comprised of one.
• In the case of eighteen teams, there would be a group stage comprised of two legs, and semi-finals and a final with one leg each.
• Each leg would be two 35-40 minute races with a 20 minute "half-time" between them. No pit stops in races, very tight pit crew limit.
• In the first round, there would be a 20 minute qualifying session to determine who starts where for the races of the first leg, and points accumulated in the first two races for race three and race four. In subsequent rounds, it's points that a driver scored in the previous round.
• There would be a winning nation, but also a Most Valuable Driver.
• Eventually, promotion and relegation with a second tier.

Yes, it would be a very intensive amount of track time. I'll post a set of examples of who could run various nations.

[jab]

It's too much. You can't overcomplicate something like this otherwise it'll go straight down the same tubes A1 went. It's got to be simple enough for people to understand and be interested in. I saw that and went "wall of text = too complicated"

As for the line-up - I've got for young drivers only (no current F1 drivers, because it just won't happen), and I've tried to find a senior and junior driver for each team:

Australia (ADR) - John Martin and Daniel Ricciardo
Brazil (Cesario) - Luiz Razia and Felipe Nasr
Britain (Carlin) - Oliver Turvey and Alexander Sims
France (ART) - Jules Bianchi and Jean-Eric Vergne
Germany (Mucke) - Christian Vietoris and Marco Wittmann
Ireland (Status) - Adam Carroll and Wayne Boyd
Italy (Rapax) - Davide Valsecchi and Mirko Bortolotti
Japan (Team LeMans) - Kazuki Nakajima and Keisuke Kunimoto
Malaysia (Mofaz) - Fairuz Fauzy and Jazeman Jaafar
Spain (Addax) - Andy Soucek and Albert Costa
Switzerland (Jenzer) - Neel Jani and Fabio Leimer
USA (Andretti) - Graham Rahal and Alexander Rossi

Reserve 12:

Belgium (Azerti) - Jerome d'Ambrosio and Laurense Vanthoor
Bulgaria ("Team Bulgaria" aka Trident) - Plamen Kralev and Vladimir Arabadzhiev (OK maybe I'm pushing it a bit there)
Canada (Jensen) - James Hinchcliffe and Robert Wickens
China (Dyna Ten) - Ho-Pin Tung and Adderly Fong
Czech Republic (Charouz) - Jan Charouz and Filip Salaquarda
Finland (Double R) - Valtteri Bottas and Jesse Krohn
India ("Force India Junior Team", aka Draco) - Narain Karthikeyan and Armaan Ebrahim
Mexico ("Telmex Racing", aka Arden) - Sergio Perez and Esteban Gutierrez
Netherlands (Van Amersfoort) - Giedo van der Garde and Renger van der Zande
Portugal (Ocean) - Alvaro Parente and Antonio Felix da Costa
Russia (KMP) - Mikhail Aleshin and Anton Nebylitskiy
Scandanavia (Performance Racing) - Marcus Ericsson and Michael Christiansen

More realistic than idealistic

[chunterer]

Nice topic guys

Anyone recall the Opel Euroseries based Nations Cup from the late 80's/early 90's. That used a readily available spec series as the basis and but favoured those drivers who knew the cars so we didn't get many drivers competing for their respective countries who hadn't raced VLC/EFO.

I guess the problem might come from choosing suitable equipment that either everyone knew or, or everyone didn't know of to avoid advantages from familiarity etc?

[jab]

Faster cars would be preferable, in that sense, if you want the bigger names competing. Because I can't see those taking a step down to driving FBMW equivalents for a weekend

[Quintin03]

Maybe adding one rule would be good. To insure each ASN provides two young drivers none of the drivers entered can be entered in years to come.

Another thing. Where would this world cup be held? I propose a purpose built circuit in the country that won the previous year. The first year a random draw will be made among circuits willing to host such an event in the countries competing. This "first year setup" can also be used every year instead. Ofcourse countries incapable of providing an FIA grade 2 pemanent circuit can host the race at a circuit in another country nearby.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by jab

It's too much. You can't overcomplicate something like this otherwise it'll go straight down the same tubes A1 went. It's got to be simple enough for people to understand and be interested in. I saw that and went "wall of text = too complicated"

I think that's more about my presentation than anything - it's essentially a series of knockout rounds, but each knockout round having more than one races.

Originally Posted by jab

Faster cars would be preferable, in that sense, if you want the bigger names competing. Because I can't see those taking a step down to driving FBMW equivalents for a weekend

Then again, while it is FBMW or so (admittedly, possibly a little faster), it would be a very high profile event after a few of them. The scheduling (first week or two of December), and reduction in brand dictation (as it wouldn't be a spec series, and quite possibly as the manufacturers wouldn't be the stars of the show) could be a good idea. F1 drivers may not neccessarily go in at the start, but if it becomes a big enough event it may well become a big thing in the calendar. No-one really realises that there have only been six Rugby World Cups.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Nice topic guys

Anyone recall the Opel Euroseries based Nations Cup from the late 80's/early 90's. That used a readily available spec series as the basis and but favoured those drivers who knew the cars so we didn't get many drivers competing for their respective countries who hadn't raced VLC/EFO.

I guess the problem might come from choosing suitable equipment that either everyone knew or, or everyone didn't know of to avoid advantages from familiarity etc?

I'm going for the suitable equipment that everyone knows option. The current equivalent would be Dallara F3 cars. A1GP machinery would be too expensive, especially the Ferrari cars. Remember, the set of technical regulations I propose would be one that would be used for far more than just the World Cup - it would ideally be the international Formula Four, if you will. The one between karts and F3, but also eventually a popular club formula. That's why I chose motorcycle engines. Another advantage is that there would be a lower level of circuit needed to host the event (albeit other facilities would need to be of a somewhat better level due to the nature of the event). This could help in taking the World Cup, and if they exist qualifying events, to other places.

Originally Posted by Quintin03

Maybe adding one rule would be good. To insure each ASN provides two young drivers none of the drivers entered can be entered in years to come.

I'm not sure about if it should be required to be a young driver event, and if it is I would do it by sticking a maximum age of the driver of the third car. Or, if there are several tiers with promotion and relegation, they could allow larger nations to have U21 teams.

Another thing. Where would this world cup be held? I propose a purpose built circuit in the country that won the previous year. The first year a random draw will be made among circuits willing to host such an event in the countries competing. This "first year setup" can also be used every year instead. Ofcourse countries incapable of providing an FIA grade 2 pemanent circuit can host the race at a circuit in another country nearby.

I supposed it could be done like that, but I wouldn't like to hold a race on a Wednesday night in December at Silverstone. I think it would be best for it to be done on a bidding basis, like the World Cup in other sports. Maybe it's just harking back to when they used to go there in the off-season, but what about going back to Nassau ...

[Shaddix]

well, IFM is going down the plumb, those cars seem to be suitable

[duke_toaster]

I suppose that could be a use for them, but it is preferable if the cars can be used for something else during the rest of the year.

[jab]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I think that's more about my presentation than anything - it's essentially a series of knockout rounds, but each knockout round having more than one races.

No, it's not your presentation. Just think for a minute - for everyone of your "knockout rounds", you have a series of races. For each race, think of how much it would cost. Then multiply that by the number of races

The teams would never do it. The drivers would never do it. The circuits would never do it. The fans wouldn't care. It would have to be over 1 day with a maximum of 3 races

You're trying to make something more complicated that it should be. I know it's nice having all these idealistic ideas with loads of races and cars that put the drivers on a level playing field - it sounds great in principle. I've had many idealistic ideas like this before so you're not the only one. But in practice, it would be a non-event, because no one would bother turning up - to watch or to participate

[NaBUru38]

I prefer street circuits:

Pau
Bucharest
Surfers Paradise
Durban
Shanghai
Punta del Este (let me dream...)

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I prefer street circuits:

Pau
Bucharest
Surfers Paradise
Durban
Shanghai
Punta del Este (let me dream...)

Some of those are inappropriate for racing in December, but it would be a good idea to run it on either a street circuit or something otherwise temporary, if only to make it a neutral venue testing wise (the old airport and Olympic Park in Athens?). The only issue would be closing it for four days (you wouldn't need to have two weeks, just run practice on Thursday, the first round on Friday, semis on Saturday and the final on Sunday), but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. It would also make weeknight races far more practical, depending on where it is held.

[Armco Bender]

Its nice to dream.......but .......I think A1 proved the world isnt interested in a motor racing world cup concept.Most of the world outside Europe isn't interested in motorsport,witness the empty stands at Middle east and Asian racing events.
People arent interested in watching up and coming drivers they have never heard of.
The event would have to run as a support event at some major meeting.
Most of the world is still economically recessed and are unlikely to be interested in funding another motorsport series.

And also you haven't included New Zealand in your line up,we have dozens of up and coming future WDC's here....

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Its nice to dream.......but .......I think A1 proved the world isnt interested in a motor racing world cup concept.

All A1GP proved was that A1GP was a bad idea. It had too much cost, one car teams, stupid choice of venues, a set of nations which largely don't give a flying Third Song On The Bloodhound Gang's Fourth Album about motor racing, useless and unheard of drivers for that reason, often scheduled against big events (hence one event in December), useless management, street circuits that broke up ... and that's before I get to Tony Teixera.

I think it's not an indication that the world doesn't want a world cup, just that A1GP was a failure. I feel sure comments of "it's not going to work" were bandied about before the World Cups of Cricket and Rugby (both codes) were suggested. This would cause less schedule disruption.

Most of the world outside Europe isn't interested in motorsport,witness the empty stands at Middle east and Asian racing events.

Not all the Asian events have low attendances - the Japanese GP gets huge crowds IIRC, Australia* does and Singapore doesn't look bad either.

* For many purposes, Australia is being considered as part of the Asian zone, for example international football (OK, that was as they actually wanted to play decent teams most of the time rather than great powerhouses of world football like the Cook Islands, Tuvalu and Papua New Guinea) and the way the Australian Open is promoted.

People arent interested in watching up and coming drivers they have never heard of.

I addressed this in listing the avoidable problems A1GP had, plus there's going to be the issue of the choice of quality of nations (which will mean

The event would have to run as a support event at some major meeting.

I think it would be perfectly capable of being a headliner in the off-season.

Most of the world is still economically recessed and are unlikely to be interested in funding another motorsport series.

Yes, but the world will not be economically recessed permanently. Realistically, such an event would probably be unable to happen before 2011 as a soft launch, and 2012 properly.

And also you haven't included New Zealand in your line up,we have dozens of up and coming future WDC's here....

I would include New Zealand as a team that would probably be in the top tier.

[Armco Bender]

a set of nations which largely don't give a flying Third Song On The Bloodhound Gang's Fourth Album about motor racing, useless and unheard of drivers for that reason,

Thats the fundimental problem with a World Series is that the 'motor racing' nations are so far ahead of non motor racing nations,and that was pretty obvious in A1.
Then a 'world series' suddenly becomes limited to a few countries.
The only drivers most people(not hardcore motorsport fans) in any country would know about are the top F1 drivers.Our current top open wheeler driver is Brendon Hartley and I would think 99/100 people here wouldn't know who he was.
Just as a motorsport event the A1GP concept here failed after the first event(novelty factor was high for the first one),it couldn't attract enough fans on its own merits and down here were pretty motorsport mad.You would have to run the events in the host teams nations countries,unless you had a single event at one track.
Formula would be a problem too,theres so many different open wheeler classes already do we need another one?
May be you could run with F3?.a World Cup series for F3 cars would have some merits.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Thats the fundimental problem with a World Series is that the 'motor racing' nations are so far ahead of non motor racing nations,and that was pretty obvious in A1. Then a 'world series' suddenly becomes limited to a few countries.

Yes, but there were a number of motor racing nations that were never included - Finland, Sweden, Spain and Belgium never had teams and Japan left early.

The only drivers most people(not hardcore motorsport fans) in any country would know about are the top F1 drivers.Our current top open wheeler driver is Brendon Hartley and I would think 99/100 people here wouldn't know who he was.

I don't know about the public in New Zealand's views on motorsport, to be honest. Perhaps it's due to the high amount of touring car racing.

Just as a motorsport event the A1GP concept here failed after the first event(novelty factor was high for the first one),it couldn't attract enough fans on its own merits and down here were pretty motorsport mad.

A1GP had its key

You would have to run the events in the host teams nations countries,unless you had a single event at one track.

I'm suggesting one meeting/event per year (like Ice Hockey), not an A1GP style series.

Formula would be a problem too,theres so many different open wheeler classes already do we need another one?
May be you could run with F3?.a World Cup series for F3 cars would have some merits.

There are too many formulea already, ideally there would be one sub-F3 formula (logically, a 1000cc bike engine based one), and the World Cup could use that. Possibly the World Cup could use F3 cars, but the lower tiers could use that formula.

[Armco Bender]

What about a world Formula Ford championship,with the finals at one track.
Winner gets a try out in a Red Bull F1 car and an F3 seat for a season....That takes care of the prize and the sponsorship in one hit.

[duke_toaster]

A drivers event would probably fail, and it sounds like that is what you are proposing, but a national teams event would probably be a strong idea. As for Formula Ford, there are a variety of issues with that - brand dictation, and that it isn't a serious single seater formula for those that want to progress up the ladder any more, due to the lack of slicks and wings.

[ptclaus98]

I don't see why Macau doesn't cover this well enough. Yeah you have teams and drivers with different nationalities, but all this is a bit nonsense. What's the point in doing it in open wheelers, anyway? It's too costly. Why not come up with a tube frame touring car, with RWD and an engine built to S2000 spec? It appeals to more countries.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I don't see why Macau doesn't cover this well enough. Yeah you have teams and drivers with different nationalities, but all this is a bit nonsense.

You've answered your own question. If you're using ball sports analogies, Macau is the Pro Bowl of F3. We're not talking about a Pro Bowl. We're talking about a World Cup.

What's the point in doing it in open wheelers, anyway? It's too costly. Why not come up with a tube frame touring car, with RWD and an engine built to S2000 spec? It appeals to more countries.

I don't think touring cars do appeal to more nations, especially bearing in mind that the most popular motor racing series in the world is open wheelers - and only two or three significant motorsport countries have situations where touring car or stock car racing is more popular than single seaters. Single seaters aren't always expensive, and it's the engines where Super 2000 has its trouble - that and the costs generally. There are also brand dictation issues, and it would provoke all sorts issues with badging.

[Armco Bender]

and only two or three significant motorsport countries have situations where touring car or stock car racing is more popular than single seaters.

I think you need to come around the other side of the world and look back,touring cars would probably be more popular in more countries than open wheelers from where I look.
F1 is only the 'most' popular because its on TV,its not as popular as the widely inflated TV audience make it sound either,take that away and other than Indy cars theres minimal interest world wide in any open wheel catergories.
We've just had V8 Supercars on here for 6 hours this afternoon,F1 is on live here at 1:00am in the morning,guess which gets the biggest TV audience.
When it comes to pulling a crowd at the track the V8's in Australasia pull more people than any other sporting code.
Anyway I digress,your event would need worldwide TV coverage.
The World Cup idea wont fly because good drivers are not distributed evenly through out the world.As I said before A1 already proved that,they almost had 2 feilds in a race,the motor racing nations up front and the not so motoracing nations struggling at the rear.
It will probably be easier to negiotate peace in the Middle East than get all the motorsport bodies and manufacturers to agrre on a common series.
Other than that don't give up on the idea just yet...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I think you need to come around the other side of the world and look back,touring cars would probably be more popular in more countries than open wheelers from where I look.

F1 is only the 'most' popular because its on TV,its not as popular as the widely inflated TV audience make it sound either,take that away and other than Indy cars theres minimal interest world wide in any open wheel catergories.

However, touring car racing is only really popular in a few countries as well, in Germany the DTM has lost traction.

We've just had V8 Supercars on here for 6 hours this afternoon,F1 is on live here at 1:00am in the morning,guess which gets the biggest TV audience.
When it comes to pulling a crowd at the track the V8's in Australasia pull more people than any other sporting code.

I said about Australia and New Zealand - they are special cases, partially due to their time zone favouring local events.

Anyway I digress,your event would need worldwide TV coverage.

It would. It would probably need FTA coverage in every participating country, which would be possible (the Rugby World Cup got off to a good start coveragewise) but a challenge.

The World Cup idea wont fly because good drivers are not distributed evenly through out the world.As I said before A1 already proved that,they almost had 2 feilds in a race,the motor racing nations up front and the not so motoracing nations struggling at the rear.

A1GP had too many nations fielding only one driver, that's why I propose having 12 or 18 nations (arguably eventually expandable to 24) in the top tier. Other sports have a smaller pool of nations able to enter good teams - the Rugby World Cup, for instance, and some of the results in the World Ice Hockey Championship and Cricket World Cup can be a little bit lop-sided.

It will probably be easier to negiotate peace in the Middle East than get all the motorsport bodies and manufacturers to agrre on a common series.
Other than that don't give up on the idea just yet...

I certainly agree that there is a lack of political will at the moment, but I feel sure it would be possible if the FIA seriously suggested it.

[NaBUru38]

Isn't there a Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch? As far as I know, it already attracts young drivers from all around the globe.

[duke_toaster]

Not really. Formula Ford is just a club formula now (a good one, but a club formula none the less). The event is still going, and most winners are reasonably heard of, but it's a shadow of it's former self. Even so, it's not a national team event - the raison d'etre of what was being discussed on the previous thread.