2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[MihokS5]

The R15 does have the zero keel setup and thats major difference in the grip levels of both cars. The F1 diagram isn't a bad one because it can at least show you how much different the suspension angles are and how the chassis may respond differently. Im not sure how you can decide which is the better approach unless you try them both. the zero keel seems like it has less adjustments

[chernaudi]

Zero keel might not have tons of limits, but it introduces new variables, as Mulsanne Mike and an article on RCE says that you have to be more careful with camber recovery and such.

[mirkob]

Asian GT3 cars, can join the race, in the Zhuhai round:

E-I.com

And ACO said "GT3 cars are not for Le Mans" :-S

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by mirkob

Asian GT3 cars, can join the race, in the Zhuhai round:

E-I.com

And ACO said "GT3 cars are not for Le Mans" :-S

Limiting the GT3s to 6 cars in kinda foolish IMHO - that's not really enough for a proper class and they really need all the cars they can get for the Zuhai round...

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by mirkob

Asian GT3 cars, can join the race, in the Zhuhai round:

E-I.com

And ACO said "GT3 cars are not for Le Mans" :-S

This is because the ACO loves Prototypes and not GT cars. If they could limit GT in favor of more Prototypes they would. Of course they need to be reminded that GT cars saved their bacon 15 years ago; short memories?

The Porsche GT3-R Hybrid will be in China and at Petit Le Mans, I believe we'll see an announcement at Road Atlanta or sooner for GT3 rules in GTC starting in 2011.

[Speed-King]

The Porsche GT3-R Hybrid will be in China and at Petit Le Mans, I believe we'll see an announcement at Road Atlanta or sooner for GT3 rules in GTC starting in 2011.

I'd like to think that they can't be that stupid, but with the current crew at the wheel in Braselton that might well happen...

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The Porsche GT3-R Hybrid will be in China and at Petit Le Mans, I believe we'll see an announcement at Road Atlanta or sooner for GT3 rules in GTC starting in 2011.

from
http://www.roadatlanta.com/nws_10-PorscheHybrid.lasso:

Because the ACO (sanctioning body for Le Mans racing) has not yet created rules for hybrid technology in production-based cars, the Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid will race unclassified at Petit Le Mans.

That's kinda lame but it lasted 4 hours and led a good bit at the RING this May....Will be interesting to see how it compares to the GT cars on track. Or is there any comparison?

I look forward to seeing it, regardless.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The Porsche GT3-R Hybrid will be in China and at Petit Le Mans, I believe we'll see an announcement at Road Atlanta or sooner for GT3 rules in GTC starting in 2011.

I do believe we will see something on admitting other (GT-3) cars into GTC during the State of the Series address/conference. But the Porsche GT3-R has no influence on that, IMO.





L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The Porsche GT3-R Hybrid will be in China and at Petit Le Mans, I believe we'll see an announcement at Road Atlanta or sooner for GT3 rules in GTC starting in 2011.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'd like to think that they can't be that stupid, but with the current crew at the wheel in Braselton that might well happen...

I do not think it supid at all! Growing GTC into something more than just a Porsche Cup class is a very good thing IMO!




L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I do not think it supid at all! Growing GTC into something more than just a Porsche Cup class is a very good thing IMO!

L.P.

I don't know what Speed-King's position is, but I think his concern might be cost.

GT-3 cars in of themselves are not cheap.

The Benz SLS looks like it will top the charts at over $500K. The BMW Z4 (2010) is $450K. Isn't this the GT(2) neighborhood?

Nobody said racing is cheap and people will continue to bring up the economy. Look anybody down on our level can talk about the economy in micro terms, not macro. In the grand scheme of things, the Rich by not fixing TBTF (Too Big To Fail) in the recently signed reform means the rich can go on about its business largely untouched.

Some sectors are fine (Technology, Hi Seth Neiman) and despite the BP oil spill a certain Green Ferrari is still being run. Only Jim Tafel who's wealth looks like it was built on the very derivative scheme that brought the world economy to its knees was one of the few actual teams effective.

So I wouldn't worry about cost (if that's Speed's concern). What it welcomes is diversity and additional ad money into the series. The European GT3 Championship is arguably the best GT Championship in Europe, even with the domination of the Callaway Corvettes run by Graf and Callaway respectively.

I see the grid growing again by 10-12 cars easily or at least the current limit of 10 cars will have more diversity than the 10 versions of the Cup and Cup S cars we currently see. All the teams could take their current Porsche and run in the Parton GT3 Championship. TRG was once one of the main GM Grand Am teams in Grand Am. I don't think its beyond Kevin's reach to run say a GT3-R Porsche or even a Callaway Corvette, Audi R8LM or Lamborghini.

I'm excited and I hope Braselburg will do the right thing.

[6157]

If the GT3 hybrid is "approved" to run at PLM, will it run "unclassified" like the Dyson did on Biobutanol at Laguna Seca last year? If it is "unclassified" then how can it be "approved". The mind boggles!

I think that says a little of how desperate the ALMS is for cars when they'll allow teams to treat a race as a glorified test session.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by 6157

If the GT3 hybrid is "approved" to run at PLM, will it run "unclassified" like the Dyson did on Biobutanol at Laguna Seca last year? If it is "unclassified" then how can it be "approved". The mind boggles!

I think that says a little of how desperate the ALMS is for cars when they'll allow teams to treat a race as a glorified test session.

Or maybe it speaks to how much more progressive they are than the ACO? I, for one, am very interested to see it whether it's classified or not.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I do not think it supid at all! Growing GTC into something more than just a Porsche Cup class is a very good thing IMO!




L.P.

Agreed. Not only a good thing, but potentially the future.

[Juntos]

G'day! Correct me if I am wrong. Like the Yankees seems Sir Mark Thomas is in troubles to make up the numbers in China. A few sausages short of the BBQ. A bunch of local GT3 to fill up the grid and a non-eligible boogie board prototype on a GT shell from Stuttgart. What is next?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Agreed. Not only a good thing, but potentially the future.

I would call the ACO desperate for entries in China ($$$$)

ALMS just wants stick its Green thumb in the eye of other American Series specifically NASCAR and Grand Am. I think you need to wait a week for it to appear on Autoweek.com but NASCAR's Brian France is dragging his feet on E85 and Fuel Injection. If you really want to read it, go to the library or newsstand (if your in the US).

But basically it said I believe in late 2009 that they would switch over to E85 and possibly fuel injection for the 2011 season, but for some reason that will not happen and that the lesser Truck Series and possibly Nationwide will get those changes first.

If Indy Car didn't blunder its way through this recent 2012 announcement and said "we're allowing stock block engines", its possible both Ford and GM could threaten NASCAR to put F.I in use in 2011. But they have no leverage, as I said over on the Motorsport.com forums, NASCAR pulls the high numbers compared to all other racing series in America, the big three can only twist their arm so far.

Adding the hybrid and announcing it now likely won't result in enough eyeballs to measure anyway.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

from
http://www.roadatlanta.com/nws_10-PorscheHybrid.lasso:
That's kinda lame but it lasted 4 hours and led a good bit at the RING this May....Will be interesting to see how it compares to the GT cars on track. Or is there any comparison?

I look forward to seeing it, regardless.

If you're talking about the Ring 24 this year the hybrid car ran for well over 22 hours and led for about 8 hours

[6157]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Or maybe it speaks to how much more progressive they are than the ACO? I, for one, am very interested to see it whether it's classified or not.

Progressive, yes, but jeopardizes the integrity of the race and the series to let a car run a race and it won't be documented at all, as if it was some ghost car.

The point is, classify it and let it run officially or don't. You cannot let a car run illegally or unclassified or whatever spin you want to put on it that can affect the outcome of the race, or at that point of the year, the championship. I think we all expect the GT2 championship to come down to the final race.

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I would call the ACO desperate for entries in China ($$$$)

ALMS just wants stick its Green thumb in the eye of other American Series specifically NASCAR and Grand Am. I think you need to wait a week for it to appear on Autoweek.com but NASCAR's Brian France is dragging his feet on E85 and Fuel Injection. If you really want to read it, go to the library or newsstand (if your in the US).

But basically it said I believe in late 2009 that they would switch over to E85 and possibly fuel injection for the 2011 season, but for some reason that will not happen and that the lesser Truck Series and possibly Nationwide will get those changes first.

If Indy Car didn't blunder its way through this recent 2012 announcement and said "we're allowing stock block engines", its possible both Ford and GM could threaten NASCAR to put F.I in use in 2011. But they have no leverage, as I said over on the Motorsport.com forums, NASCAR pulls the high numbers compared to all other racing series in America, the big three can only twist their arm so far.

Adding the hybrid and announcing it now likely won't result in enough eyeballs to measure anyway.

Regardless of what you opinion is on the technical relevancy of NASCAR these days, changing over to fuel injection is a massive overtaking for the sanctioning body. Across the three series, you're talking about new motors for every Sprint Cup, Nationwide, and Camping World Truck series team. That's nearly 2,000 engines. It was rumored for 2011 but it's obvious that's not going to happen now and I think they'll keep pushing it back as long as they can, which I do think is a mistake. E85 should be an easier transition; the transition to unleaded gas was relatively quick and painless. Why it hasn't been done, I'd only be guessing.

Even if Ford and Chevrolet did return to IndyCar racing, there's still no leverage. IndyCar would need some sustained growth or market share to be able to provide any leverage against a competing series and they're lucky to stay even, if not losing slightly, these days.

Although this doesn't apply specifically to this thread but since you mentioned it, I read today that Ford has no interest in supplying IndyCar aero kits or building/badging engines.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I don't know what Speed-King's position is, but I think his concern might be cost.

GT-3 cars in of themselves are not cheap.

The Benz SLS looks like it will top the charts at over $500K. The BMW Z4 (2010) is $450K. Isn't this the GT(2) neighborhood?

Nobody said racing is cheap and people will continue to bring up the economy. Look anybody down on our level can talk about the economy in micro terms, not macro. In the grand scheme of things, the Rich by not fixing TBTF (Too Big To Fail) in the recently signed reform means the rich can go on about its business largely untouched.

Some sectors are fine (Technology, Hi Seth Neiman) and despite the BP oil spill a certain Green Ferrari is still being run. Only Jim Tafel who's wealth looks like it was built on the very derivative scheme that brought the world economy to its knees was one of the few actual teams effective.

Yeah, costs is indeed my main concern. As for rich people still being rich enough to go racing: What is it that John Bishop said once about IMSA: It's our goal to allow the merely rich to go racing, or something to that effect. Of course a billionaire CEO like Krohn can afford to go racing right now, but I bet there are plenty of people who've stopped going racing in recent years or dropped down to Conti Challenge, HSR or NASA.

So I wouldn't worry about cost (if that's Speed's concern). What it welcomes is diversity and additional ad money into the series. The European GT3 Championship is arguably the best GT Championship in Europe, even with the domination of the Callaway Corvettes run by Graf and Callaway respectively.

GT3 is standing on feet of clay, though. A few years ago the European series had fields in the high forties, nowadays it's a good twenty cars less, which means that they've lost an average of five cars during each off season, that's not good. And it's even worse in the national series, especially in great Britain, but also here in Germany the organisors have resorted to adding a secondary class for Cup-Porsches nad the like.

I see the grid growing again by 10-12 cars easily or at least the current limit of 10 cars will have more diversity than the 10 versions of the Cup and Cup S cars we currently see. All the teams could take their current Porsche and run in the Parton GT3 Championship. TRG was once one of the main GM Grand Am teams in Grand Am. I don't think its beyond Kevin's reach to run say a GT3-R Porsche or even a Callaway Corvette, Audi R8LM or Lamborghini.

Yeah, but those teams decided to run ALMS when the series needed them most and allowing half a million dollar cars into the class would be a HUGE middlefinger to them. And then, they decided to run ALMS over the Porsche Cup because they get a better ROI there, simply saying that they could drop back to where they came from is imho not the solution. As for Kevin beeing able to afford a GT3 R - of course he is, but then it is not Kevin's car that TRG runs in GTC. That one's owned by Henri Richard and TRG is merely providing the crew to run it.

My main point is: GT3 has become horribly unstable and expensive in recent years and that's two things that GTC was designed to be not. Right now GT3 is moreorless GT2 with a lag of two or so years in terms of costs as well as in terms of speed - now does the series really need a second GT2 class?!

What I would like to see is allowing GT3 cars to compete with the regular GT-cars (it can be done, the best example are probably the 24hours at the Ring) and then they should open up GTC to the standard (non-GT3, non-Scuderia) Ferrari Challenge cars, the SuperTropheo Gallardos and perhaps the standard not-souped up Viper CC. That way they'd add variety to the class without repeating the SRO's mistakes.
There is actually a model for this approach: The Italian GT-series has a "GT Cup" category for the cars I've mentioned above (minus the Viper) and so far all three brands in the class have scored some victories.

Some pics of the Italian GT Cup-cars: http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...09-05-31c.html
No Lambo in that one, these only joined the series in 2010 and there aren't any pics of those yet on RSC.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I would call the ACO desperate for entries in China ($$$$)

I was speaking about the GTC class as a whole. I believe that it is not just field fillers, but the future 4th class, although I agree with you that the cost would have to be reigned in. The ACO will (might, should, whatever) come along.

Originally Posted by 6157

Progressive, yes, but jeopardizes the integrity of the race and the series to let a car run a race and it won't be documented at all, as if it was some ghost car.

The point is, classify it and let it run officially or don't. You cannot let a car run illegally or unclassified or whatever spin you want to put on it that can affect the outcome of the race, or at that point of the year, the championship. I think we all expect the GT2 championship to come down to the final race.

I'm sure IMSA would classify the car if they could. Their hands are tied, for this event in particular, by the ACO. Better to have the car out there than not in my opinion. I've been interested in this thing for a while and I'm going to the event, so at least some of the fans want it there.

This isn't the first time IMSA has done this. Was "Sparky" classified? The MC-12 wasn't (sort of). What about the Corsa hybrid? Or Dysons butynol car? I'm glad I got to see all of these experiments I otherwise wouldn't have had it been purely up to the ACO.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

Progressive, yes, but jeopardizes the integrity of the race and the series to let a car run a race and it won't be documented at all, as if it was some ghost car.

The point is, classify it and let it run officially or don't. You cannot let a car run illegally or unclassified or whatever spin you want to put on it that can affect the outcome of the race, or at that point of the year, the championship. I think we all expect the GT2 championship to come down to the final race.



Regardless of what you opinion is on the technical relevancy of NASCAR these days, changing over to fuel injection is a massive overtaking for the sanctioning body. Across the three series, you're talking about new motors for every Sprint Cup, Nationwide, and Camping World Truck series team. That's nearly 2,000 engines. It was rumored for 2011 but it's obvious that's not going to happen now and I think they'll keep pushing it back as long as they can, which I do think is a mistake. E85 should be an easier transition; the transition to unleaded gas was relatively quick and painless. Why it hasn't been done, I'd only be guessing.

Even if Ford and Chevrolet did return to IndyCar racing, there's still no leverage. IndyCar would need some sustained growth or market share to be able to provide any leverage against a competing series and they're lucky to stay even, if not losing slightly, these days.

Although this doesn't apply specifically to this thread but since you mentioned it, I read today that Ford has no interest in supplying IndyCar aero kits or building/badging engines.

Massive overtaking? Hardly, these dyno's run 24/7 over at Hendrick and Yates. F1 can make a change, DONE next season, even in a few races. Stop and don't make excuses for people with money.

Indy Car's sustained growth is threatened by what happen last Wed.

Ford had expressed interest in Indy Car but on its terms (stock blocks). In fact most of the OEM's have embraced GRE because it saves them money.

If you want the OEM's involved, you have to work with them on their terms and strike a balance between factory supported and private efforts.

What's going on in motorsport on the whole, everything is relevant it really doesn't matter what series your taking about.

[Purist]

JHamilton, which car was "Sparky"? The main instance I can think of from the old IMSA of a one'off coming in like this was the Porsche 961 GTX-class entry at the 1986 Daytona Finale.

DJ, which stock block did Ford want? i can tell you that nobody would be impressed or turned on by the gloried hairdryer sound of a mere touring car engine, which is precisely what the GRE is. And a big V8 just makes Indy Cars sound more like NASCAR machines, which diminishes their identity, and didn't work to save the IRL in its original form. People have a series with those V8s, so why would they want or need to watch another just to get the same thing all over again?

Hmm, am I still in the "Sportscar and GT" forum? I'd almost forgotten.

[Victor_RO]

"Sparky"? Wasn't that the Panoz GTR-1 hybrid?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

"Sparky"? Wasn't that the Panoz GTR-1 hybrid?

Yes!





L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yeah, costs is indeed my main concern. As for rich people still being rich enough to go racing: What is it that John Bishop said once about IMSA: It's our goal to allow the merely rich to go racing, or something to that effect. Of course a billionaire CEO like Krohn can afford to go racing right now, but I bet there are plenty of people who've stopped going racing in recent years or dropped down to Conti Challenge, HSR or NASA.

(snip)

I agree with your concerns and all series have issues mostly money-related.

Adding Ferrari Challenge Cars could be useful. In other words take cars normally in single make series and add them to GTC. You would have to do some testing as those cars don't have rear wings or splitters. The Viper is out of production, but you could give a place for all the cars that run Viper Club events currently (in competition with World Challenge).

As I said I'm not that worried about cost, TRG for example was able to buy a Sprint Cup team for pennies on the dollar and does "start and park". That is income no matter how you look at it, especially if he buys one set of tires, fuel and your team is made mostly of people already employed by you.

We're also assuming that there would be no factory assisted teams and I doubt that would happen. Porsche, BMW, Audi and Lamborghini all make off the shelf legal GT3 cars that require little development, that's basically what your paying for. For Callaway Competition its interesting because if Reeves wants to play, does he import cars from his German partner or does he build the cars in-house here in CT? Does Riley re-tool its GT2 Corvette to GT3 spec? The only car(s) missing from the Paul Ricard grid are the Kesel built Scuderia Ferrari's, Matech built Ford GT and the Multimatic (Canadian Company) built Marc VDS Mustang (Great car BTW).

The exchange rate makes the Euro built cars more expensive, but I'll bet you the Marc VDS could be built on a 1:1 ratio between the Canadian and US dollar, possibly making it cheaper than Marc VDS version but I think Ford of Europe has some say in the Belgian team's car.

I know most of the amateurs (like Henri) likely own their cars in GTC currently. If you got what, $170,000 (TRG is selling its 2009 Cup for $169,000) for a refreshed Cup car and bought a new Cup-R which at current exchange is $360,000, you would only be spending about half that to upgrade. Audi R8 LMS is $385,000US. In fact since the value of the Euro is down ($1.29E vs $1.00US) NOW would be the time to announce your plans and put in your order.

I don't think it cost that much to actually move up to GT3.

[Purist]

Well, if you did go with the Trofeo sort of route with GTC going forward, hopefully you could also have the Maserati GranTurismo race cars included as eligible alongside the Gallardos, F430s, 911s, and whatnot.