[Driver] Vettel vs Webber: Round 2

[Wims]

Originally Posted by deeks6

...I'd like to see team orders in any form heavily penalised but its never going to be the case.

I'm sure they will be allowed again after the next race, so yeah, thats never going to be the case. Team orders are a part of F1s DNA

[stripedcat]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well I think the result has effectively handed Alonso the title, the Maclarens seem to have slowed down and vettel would rather webber did not win the title so even if webber wins in the final race vettel will probably allow alonso into second. Vettel is a good driver for sure but a team player I am not so sure about.

Hehehheehe. Good theory on Vettel. Perhaps he will hear over his radio : "Fernando is faster than you. Do you understand?".

The Vettel/Webber relationship could be interesting next year. Especially if Webber wins the WDC. He could pull the "I'm WDC" line in the team. It might make his position there even more fraught.

What is the situation with team orders now? If Vettel gets told to pull over for Webber this weekend will Red Bull get fined?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

What is the situation with team orders now? If Vettel gets told to pull over for Webber this weekend will Red Bull get fined?

Worst case scenario is a fine, it seems...........

[stripedcat]

Okay thank you for the reply, phoenix.

[GTRMagic]

Mr Webber might even spring for it, to become WDC

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Worst case scenario is a fine, it seems...........

That's the precedent, and as far as I'm aware, nothing has come out to suggest the next incident under the current rules will lead to any more.

[JABWOA]

Mr Red Bull himself has said he'd rather have drivers who raced fairly and came second than introduce team orders and have a champion. (Bet it would be different if the driver situation was reveresed though.)

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Mr Red Bull himself has said he'd rather have drivers who raced fairly and came second than introduce team orders and have a champion. (Bet it would be different if the driver situation was reveresed though.)

In fairness the situation was reversed and then Mr Red Bull (Dieter) put a stop to it. It would be hypocritical of him to now turn around and reverse the situation.

Alonso also picked up 2 points when Schumacher was unfairly disqualified from 5th place ahead of him in Monaco.

[strider]

Originally Posted by wnut

Alonso also picked up 2 points when Schumacher was unfairly disqualified from 5th place ahead of him in Monaco.

It's when I read remarks like that, which are based purely on subjective opinion, that I start hoping Alonso will indeed win it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by strider

It's when I read remarks like that, which are based purely on subjective opinion, that I start hoping Alonso will indeed win it.

Good then we agree on something.
Alonso is the most deserving of the title contenders.

[OZ_HCR32]

On what grounds?

I think he is the most talented. But he has made a whole bunch of mistakes this year. Probably more then Vettel without having a hard think about it.

Button has been the most consistant and error free. But he has not had anything like the speed needed to claim to be worthy. I think all in all Mark has done enough to be deserving....on merit I would say he is just ahead of Vettel with regards to speed and consistancy, just with one or two less mistakes. But Vettel has come on very strong the second half of the season as the car development has come to him. Webber was strongest in the middle part of the season when the blown diffuser was making the car a little more difficult to drive.

I will have mixed feelings no matter who wins...Alonso the least because he already has two and its not like he is having to fight the guy in equal equipment...just those in better

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by wnut

Good then we agree on something.
Alonso is the most deserving of the title contenders.

You gotta be kidding.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Mr Red Bull himself has said he'd rather have drivers who raced fairly and came second than introduce team orders and have a champion. (Bet it would be different if the driver situation was reveresed though.)

Now think for a minute what he has to lose with that attitude.


That makes remember Williams of old.

[Ralf's Girl]

I could understand that mentality if one driver was actually leading the championship - for example in 1996 Williams were happy to let Hill and Villeneuve fight it out because it was guaranteed that one of them would win it - but with Alonso in the driving seat it does look like a 'no team orders' policy might well cost Red Bull the WDC. Of course, just because there are no team orders (or so we're told) doesn't mean that there aren't some conversations going on in the background along the lines of "Right Seb, so if you're leading from Mark with Alonso third, this is what should probably happen..."

[Tin top racer]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I could understand that mentality if one driver was actually leading the championship - for example in 1996 Williams were happy to let Hill and Villeneuve fight it out because it was guaranteed that one of them would win it - but with Alonso in the driving seat it does look like a 'no team orders' policy might well cost Red Bull the WDC. Of course, just because there are no team orders (or so we're told) doesn't mean that there are some conversations going on in the background along the lines of "Right Seb, so if you're leading from Mark with Alonso third, this is what should probably happen..."

Totally agree, or at least strongly hope that is going on behind closed doors, you know it would be if it were the other way around.
Would really like to see a commanding performance from Webber to seal the title but on current form I think a bit of help from Vettel will be required (or Alonso's engine blowing up!)

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

....on merit I would say he is just ahead of Vettel with regards to speed and consistancy, just with one or two less mistakes. But Vettel has come on very strong the second half of the season as the car development has come to him.

Really? At Bahrain, he blew everyone away until the sparkplug problem, retired from the lead in Australia when Mark was struggling to score 2 points and finished ahead of Mark at both Malyasia and China, then had a problem at Spain. I'll admit that Mark had the stronger mid season, but nothing suggests to me that Mark has been ahead of Seb in terms of speed and i certainly don't think that car development has then made Seb faster. It has helped his driving style but it suddenly hasn't made him faster than Mark, he was faster before that too.

As for consistancy, Vettel has been involved in 2 (Turkey and Spa) where he didn't finish either time, Mark has been involved in 5 (Australia, Turkey, Valencia,Singapore and Korea) and managed to score points in 3 of the 5, but Vettel has by far had the worst reliability, so i don't actually see where Mark has been more consistant but we all see things differently i suppose.

[OZ_HCR32]

Regarding consistency, its a matter of 10 podiums with 4 wins vs 9 podiums and 4 wins. I also believe Webber has qualified on the front row more then Vettel, though the flip side is Vettel has almost doubled Marks Pole efforts.

Vettel has banged wheels multiple times in the one race with people at Silverstone, Spa etc. You would have to include Hungary as a driving error for Vettel as whuilst he didnt crash, he threw away a win behind the pace car and then was too flustered to just get on with it and still get the win. I dont think its night and day, like I said using the above measures combined with the less car failures mean Mark has been more conistant IMO.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now think for a minute what he has to lose with that attitude.


That makes remember Williams of old.

Anybody remember Adelaide 1986? Mr Mansell, Mr Piquet & Mr Prost all with a mathematical chance of the title... only for Mr Mansell to blow a tyre, Mr Piquet to be slowed by a similar problem, and Mr Prost cruising thru to become WDC

Could it be that history shall repeat itself... that the 2 fastest cars of the day powered by Red Bull.. shall play marginal strategies, and the 3rd, unfancied punter shall become champion?

You just never know huh

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Really? At Bahrain, he blew everyone away until the sparkplug problem, retired from the lead in Australia when Mark was struggling to score 2 points and finished ahead of Mark at both Malyasia and China, then had a problem at Spain. I'll admit that Mark had the stronger mid season, but nothing suggests to me that Mark has been ahead of Seb in terms of speed and i certainly don't think that car development has then made Seb faster. It has helped his driving style but it suddenly hasn't made him faster than Mark, he was faster before that too.

As for consistancy, Vettel has been involved in 2 (Turkey and Spa) where he didn't finish either time, Mark has been involved in 5 (Australia, Turkey, Valencia,Singapore and Korea) and managed to score points in 3 of the 5, but Vettel has by far had the worst reliability, so i don't actually see where Mark has been more consistant but we all see things differently i suppose.

I don't think taking their finishing positions really illustrates whose been faster Mr V. Vettel has generally been faster in quali but the races have been pretty much a dead heat as far a pace is concerned.

You mention China, Webber was ahead of Vettel until he was punted off during a saftey car restart by Hamilton, In Australia Webber was hamstrung by poor work on the pitwall. He was easily in second until Red Bull failed to bring him in to change to dry tyres (I think he did 3 laps more than Button) which dropped him out of centention for the win. (He did however have an accident while trying to recover positions) Spain Webber clearly had the edge on Vettel all weekend and was ahead before Vettel had issues.

On the whole the season has been a very close affair between the 2 drivers. Admitidly Vettel has had a worse run with reliability.

[jab]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Anybody remember Adelaide 1986? Mr Mansell, Mr Piquet & Mr Prost all with a mathematical chance of the title... only for Mr Mansell to blow a tyre, Mr Piquet to be slowed by a similar problem, and Mr Prost cruising thru to become WDC

Could it be that history shall repeat itself... that the 2 fastest cars of the day powered by Red Bull.. shall play marginal strategies, and the 3rd, unfancied punter shall become champion?

You just never know huh

There's also 81 where Williams' Reutemann lost out to Piquet after internal disputes with Alan Jones. And it is suggested that Reutemann's lack of pace at the finale in Vegas (in comparison to his team mate, who dominated the race) may not have been his own doing, similar to Irvine at Suzuka in 99

That's the sort of thing I'm hoping Red Bull wouldn't stoop to, but it would certainly remove the question of whether or not to impose team orders, and it would remove the "problem" of Mark beating Seb, wouldn't it?

[GTRMagic]

If Renault cares about the WDC.. I wonder if their alleged favourite son might get a little edge at the weekend...

Go Potsie

[jab]

Also I've just noticed this thread has the 3rd highest number of posts in the F1 forum, behind only the Spygate thread and last year's silly season thread

I am proud to have started such a monolith

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by jab

Also I've just noticed this thread has the 3rd highest number of posts in the F1 forum, behind only the Spygate thread and last year's silly season thread

I am proud to have started such a monolith

Are you on the usual 'pence per post' scheme then?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by jab

I am proud to have started such a monolith

Good job mate...

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by jab

Also I've just noticed this thread has the 3rd highest number of posts in the F1 forum, behind only the Spygate thread and last year's silly season thread

I am proud to have started such a monolith

This tells us that the people of 10 Tenths like to argue round in circles. I eagerly await round 3 next year...assuming Webber doesn't go to Renault.