Serious question to IndyCar fans....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Who's IZOD? Seriously, their name is all over the car but no real explanation from them or any broadcasts as to what they do. When you watch NASCAR they say Sprint like they have tourettes!

Having looked up IZOD it is sort of indicative of what IndyCar has become when a clothing retailer is sponsoring top level motor racing in the USA. When you look at NASCAR (Sprint, DuPont, Verizon etc) and some of the F1 sponsors (Santander, Petronas, Vodafone, Marlboro etc) and them compare them to IndyCar sponsors (GoDaddy, 7-11, Target, err?) you realise the IRL is actually running rather small-time which fits in with how large IZOD is compared to the major sponsors of other sports. The sponsorship of the teams in the IICS is like watching an American version of GP2, which seems to be where IndyCar is in terms of interest, coverage and pace.

The IRL, from its very inception was plagued by lack of sponsorship. All the big multinationals stayed with CART and when CART self-destructed most of those sponsors went over to NASCAR, if they weren't there already. That's where the TV coverage and the spectators were.

Interesting you say it's like GP2, I think more of it more like Formula 5000 in the late '70s, with a couple of teams with decent sponsors and the rest fighting over pay to drive drivers. If you think a clothing company is odd, one of the big sponsors for F 5000 was Radio Luxembourg; they co-sponsored one of the teams as well as sponsoring a number of the races. Radio Luxembourg started out as a 'Pirate' radio station in the 1960s.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Who's IZOD? Seriously, their name is all over the car but no real explanation from them or any broadcasts as to what they do. When you watch NASCAR they say Sprint like they have tourettes!

Having looked up IZOD it is sort of indicative of what IndyCar has become when a clothing retailer is sponsoring top level motor racing in the USA. When you look at NASCAR (Sprint, DuPont, Verizon etc) and some of the F1 sponsors (Santander, Petronas, Vodafone, Marlboro etc) and them compare them to IndyCar sponsors (GoDaddy, 7-11, Target, err?) you realise the IRL is actually running rather small-time which fits in with how large IZOD is compared to the major sponsors of other sports. The sponsorship of the teams in the IICS is like watching an American version of GP2, which seems to be where IndyCar is in terms of interest, coverage and pace.

I would call those IndyCar sponsors that you mention big, high profile sponsors. 7-11 has been in IndyCar in the '80's. Target is huge. I've barely heard of IZOD though. For some reason there's a trip in my brain that keeps me thinking that IZOD is a tool company. They do need to make it clearer as to what they do. IZOD seems to be a very poor name for a clothing company although maybe it's a cultural thing I'm missing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I would call those IndyCar sponsors that you mention big, high profile sponsors. 7-11 has been in IndyCar in the '80's. Target is huge. I've barely heard of IZOD though. For some reason there's a trip in my brain that keeps me thinking that IZOD is a tool company. They do need to make it clearer as to what they do. IZOD seems to be a very poor name for a clothing company although maybe it's a cultural thing I'm missing.

You can read about the history of Izod here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZOD

[JagtechOhio]

All good feedback

Pablo, whether people agree or disagree, nobody can say you don't turn up the wick!

So the Fiat commercial didn't get anybody else going? I still think it does the job Izod tried and missed.

[PabloTeK]

Cheers Jag

What I mean by Target being a small sponsor is in relation to some of the NASCAR and F1 sponsors, many of which are corps so massive they could probably afford to buy Belgium. IndyCar's largest appears to be a supermarket. Dunno about you but when F1's largest sponsor is a multinational bank (Santander) and Sprint being not that far behind in terms of Globality and the best IndyCar can do is a national supermarket, one has to ask whether the IRL has got it right...

Oddly enough the GP2 comment relates mainly to the cars, many pay drivers and a car that has about the same pace by my estimations. I do rather hope that with the new chassis and engine this shortfall compared to the F1 circus is redressed, because IndyCar looks poor at the moment with a slow car, small-ish grids and not that many major sponsors, I mean Simona is running advertising for an MMO on the side of her car!

Maybe I'm being thick but maybe the IRL could do with hooking up with NASCAR for the speedways (ignoring the restrictor tracks and the small short-tracks) and road courses. It'd certainly help get a capitive audience and they can't be that fussy at the moment. Whilst I didn't get to see the final (I was at the Britcar 24hr marshalling, probably had more speccies) the grandstands from some of the web clips looked deader than Stowe when Silverstone's using the national circuit... That's not good.

[PZippy]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Cheers Jag

What I mean by Target being a small sponsor is in relation to some of the NASCAR and F1 sponsors, many of which are corps so massive they could probably afford to buy Belgium. IndyCar's largest appears to be a supermarket. Dunno about you but when F1's largest sponsor is a multinational bank (Santander) and Sprint being not that far behind in terms of Globality and the best IndyCar can do is a national supermarket, one has to ask whether the IRL has got it right...

Oddly enough the GP2 comment relates mainly to the cars, many pay drivers and a car that has about the same pace by my estimations. I do rather hope that with the new chassis and engine this shortfall compared to the F1 circus is redressed, because IndyCar looks poor at the moment with a slow car, small-ish grids and not that many major sponsors, I mean Simona is running advertising for an MMO on the side of her car!

Maybe I'm being thick but maybe the IRL could do with hooking up with NASCAR for the speedways (ignoring the restrictor tracks and the small short-tracks) and road courses. It'd certainly help get a capitive audience and they can't be that fussy at the moment. Whilst I didn't get to see the final (I was at the Britcar 24hr marshalling, probably had more speccies) the grandstands from some of the web clips looked deader than Stowe when Silverstone's using the national circuit... That's not good.

Pablo - While Target sells groceries at some stores, they do not at every store. Additionally, Target may be focused on the United States, but they are indeed a massive company. $65B (US) in revenue (right off their annual report). Over 1750 stores throughout the US. Over 350,000 employees. Calling them a grocer is like calling Wal-mart a grocer. BTW, they are Wal-Mart's primary competitor. If Wal-Mart decided to sponsor an IndyCar team - I think everyone would be dancing in the streets.

Target is a great company and yes a great store (my personal choice for discounter). You can like or not like 'em but to minimal-ize their size or their impact is just plain wrong.

BTW - IndyCar currently has only two of their races outside of North America, so no one who wasn't interested in the US market would legitimately sponsor a team or car, unless of course they were doing so for nationalistic reasons. (See Viso, Duno, Mutoh, etc)

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by PZippy

Target is a great company and yes a great store (my personal choice for discounter). You can like or not like 'em but to minimal-ize their size or their impact is just plain wrong.

I know Target is enormous, for a national company. Many of the sponsors in F1 and NASCAR are enormous multinationals (particularly F1). We have Tesco here which is probably even bigger than Target (about £1 in every £8 in the UK is spent there!) but even so I don't think they'd be a premier sponsor; although Tesco McLaren Mercedes would be a giggle! Indycar needs to attract Megacorps like F1 because NASCAR has the more "down-to-earth" bases already covered and OW racing has always (apart from the Baccy days) had more corporate sponsors, i.e. Vodafone, XTB, Santander, AT&T & Petronas.

When IndyCar has more money to throw around then IZOD will start to get better value as everyone involved can start pushing it. Until then they're stuck in a hole without any supermassive sponsors and still no decent sense of direction. The new car might go some way to addressing this mind if the racing gets better and the fans start wandering back. F1 has many fans and none of the sponsoring companies are really at the level of consumers like Target but it seems they have enough money to go to some desert for a procession!

Also, give IndyCar more ovals FFS, it's American racing! Plus the racing has been much better this year on the banked 1.5 milers than on some of the road courses...

[PZippy]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

I know Target is enormous, for a national company. Many of the sponsors in F1 and NASCAR are enormous multinationals (particularly F1). We have Tesco here which is probably even bigger than Target (about £1 in every £8 in the UK is spent there!) but even so I don't think they'd be a premier sponsor; although Tesco McLaren Mercedes would be a giggle! Indycar needs to attract Megacorps like F1 because NASCAR has the more "down-to-earth" bases already covered and OW racing has always (apart from the Baccy days) had more corporate sponsors, i.e. Vodafone, XTB, Santander, AT&T & Petronas.

Pablo - First of all, excellent debate! I'm sure that Sir Frank Williams would take Tesco's money in a heartbeat, so he didn't need to take on a pay driver like Pastor Maldonado and he could afford to keep Hulkenberg.

However, you missed my point about the market which IndyCar basically conducts itself in. IndyCar is NOT a multinational series. They compete in Japan as a tip of the cap to Honda. They go to Brazil because there is a huge influx of Brazilian drivers and sponsors. I can't even begin to imagine what their international TV is like since their US TV isn't much to crow about.

If you worked in the marketing department of a multinational corporation, you wouldn't be recommending IndyCar sponsorships unless you were insane or wanted to be fired. The only value comes from business conducted in the US anyway.

I don't disagree with your premise for the future, but we are a long, long, long way from getting there. Give Randy another 3-5 years.

[JagtechOhio]

PZip, maybe you can help with this question. Here is Randy Bernard, speaking from Las Vegas on Monday from the 11th Motorsports Marketing Forum:

• About the commercial side: “We have great momentum, and it really started before I got there with IZOD. We can’t say enough about what IZOD has done for our sport in its first year as the title sponsor. We’ve also signed 14 new partners in the past 12 months, and the total sponsorship spend went from $34 million to $81 million from 2009 to 2010. So we’re seeing great progress.”

Bernard first threw that number out in an interview in July 2010, and he has since cited a third party analysis as the source. I'd have to look the company up again, seems like it was IFM or something like that.

$81M is the figure now used as of Sept. 15. There was a short period, just about the time 7-11 reduced their participation, that Bernard was using a figure for "sponsorship spend" of over $100M.

This sounds really cool, but it's pretty hard to figure out what these figures represent and where the money is. Where is there any evidence of increased investment on the Series or the team levels?

Edmonton was thrown into doubt over $3M, Vegas will likely require a track rental/ co-promotion deal for perhaps the same amount, and the Baltimore promoter is still about $1M short of guaranteeing continued construction. Seems like opening the checkbook to insure the future of three out of 17 races on your schedule would be a prudent investment.

Coyne and Bachelart found out that the Series is keeping a total of $2.6M that they previously were entitled to. Other teams are in flux as they prepare for 2011 while hunting for the sponsorship money required to run one car, never mind two.

What does "total sponsorship spend went from $34 million to $81 million" mean? If it means real dollars, who has them?

[PZippy]

Jag - My good friend...I'm thinking of my favorite Mark Twain quote, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"

Randy, like any good executive is using the numbers and stats to his best advantage. Beyond that, I am a few years removed from being a sponsor so I have no recent pertinent data.

I would say that a team like Andretti alone would have at least $20M in sponsorship alone, maybe more. When Motorola was onboard I think they were paying $7M per year. I'm sure Verizon is paying some top dollar, Penske doesn't play around. Target and all of their partners are probably in for close to $20M. So my guess is, that the number is simply the aggregate sponsorship from all the teams. He's probably including Indy only sponsorships too. Even Joe $H*T the Ragman can get sponsored for the 500. Most one offs can grab a $1M for the one race. He could also be valuing technical sponsorships as well. An example; most teams use generic "Black Box" modules, the league regulates pricing. However, if a team sponsor decides to make a "special" version at the "official" price but they may have provided significant more in value and simply call it sponsorship. My company provided hundreds of thousands in computer equipment for free as part of our sponsorship package. It was all included and a price was attached.

I don't think Randy is making this number up, however, I do think he's taking some moderate liberties to arrive at this number. I don't disagree with his approach, it's the game he's got to play.

My .02 - hope this helps.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by PZippy

Jag - My good friend...I'm thinking of my favorite Mark Twain quote, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"

Randy, like any good executive is using the numbers and stats to his best advantage. Beyond that, I am a few years removed from being a sponsor so I have no recent pertinent data.

I would say that a team like Andretti alone would have at least $20M in sponsorship alone, maybe more. When Motorola was onboard I think they were paying $7M per year. I'm sure Verizon is paying some top dollar, Penske doesn't play around. Target and all of their partners are probably in for close to $20M. So my guess is, that the number is simply the aggregate sponsorship from all the teams. He's probably including Indy only sponsorships too. Even Joe $H*T the Ragman can get sponsored for the 500. Most one offs can grab a $1M for the one race. He could also be valuing technical sponsorships as well. An example; most teams use generic "Black Box" modules, the league regulates pricing. However, if a team sponsor decides to make a "special" version at the "official" price but they may have provided significant more in value and simply call it sponsorship. My company provided hundreds of thousands in computer equipment for free as part of our sponsorship package. It was all included and a price was attached.

I don't think Randy is making this number up, however, I do think he's taking some moderate liberties to arrive at this number. I don't disagree with his approach, it's the game he's got to play.

My .02 - hope this helps.

If one picks through a lot of these "sponsorships" asking people involved in the teams reveals a variety of sources for the funding, in the case of a few team owners deals piggy backed with nascar deals, funding sourced via a complicated network of B2B dealings on behalf of the team owner or pay driver, various patronage, tax write offs, pay driver cash from nebulous sources and so on.

The current media value of an entire car in sponsorship is about a million bucks give or take a bit depending on competitiveness. There are few real hard cash money commercial sponsorships in the sport. Everything is being held together with a patchwork of nefarious deals and in my experience things held together with bubble gum and duct tape only last so long.

The irl has shown recently with one kick after another it's main interest is to shore up the $20 million losses every year and get it's ledger cleaned up. That includes everything from demanding higher sanctioning fees, to a $2.6 million cut off the welfare money, to proposed rules keeping teams from getting manufacturer dollars and obviously instead forcing the manufacturers to funnel money to the irl via "marketing support", hording Izod money with no real bump in prize money or welfare money, "taxes" on aero kit manufacturers and a "dallara tax" on spare parts.

Some of the indy fans have acted like they've been saved thanks to lotus and chebby. Don't think so. Lotus is a dubious house of cards built on quicksand with a slush fund of malaysian tax payer money. As they admitted recently Lotus Cars has never returned a dime of profit under 15 years of Proton ownership and this is their big gamble to make it which I think will be a bust(spending $40 million on a partnership with Renault doesn't make you an instant Ferrari). Chebby is slapping their name on a valve cover of one of rogers ilmors that merely just takes the place of some honda supply.

For all this fist pumping and leg humping with press releases there better be an increase in tv ratings and attendance next year.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Edmonton was thrown into doubt over $3M, Vegas will likely require a track rental/ co-promotion deal for perhaps the same amount, and the Baltimore promoter is still about $1M short of guaranteeing continued construction. Seems like opening the checkbook to insure the future of three out of 17 races on your schedule would be a prudent investment.

If the irl does that then where does their money come from? The irl is basically a traveling circus that relies on sanctioning fees paid by promoters to pay it's welfare checks to teams and to pay for barnyards tenderloin sammiches. Whether or not a race succeeds or fails, in a way the irl doesn't care as long as the sanctioning fee check clears.

As Champcar found out you can't play one foot in and one foot out with events. Either you set up a professional racing event organization to run some of these events and then reap the profits or you don't. You can't just dole out a million to this guy, 3 million to that guy, 2 million to that guy to make events you should be paid for, happen. If you do then you are basically taking the financial risk and in that case you better be all in or not at all. The promoters will basically say instead you pay us, we are not going to pay you and that is what is already happening. The nice term is "track rental".

[JagtechOhio]

Star, thanks for your humor.

Had the quote you pasted been written by somebody like Boomerblaste on CW, you would have saluted it. Instead, you see the source and work out a rebuttal to a different argument.

Bernard didn't make up the $81M figure, he's just waving it. The stripes on that flag must include every imaginable sponsorship, b2b deal, and decal they can count. And it's likely a "gross income" figure, not taking into account the applicable sponsorships that have departed.

You are quite right about "you better be all in or not at all" when it comes to race promotions, and we see where IndyCar has gotten by expecting promoters to carry the load.

But the magic $81M...that's the rub. Income from TV broadcasters, Series sponsors, team sponsors...it's all tied to car counts and actual races, right? Losing events is the most critical concern, since it could potentially blow some of those deals up.

So my GUESS is that you solicit event sponsors, then beg a little, and if you're in a fortunate position you can play hardball like Octane did to Edmonton. But when the schedule has to get printed, the races have to be on it. Even if you have to suck it up and put on the show out of pocket.

Which wouldn't be a problem if you had $47M dollars more to wave around than you had the preceding year.

[JagtechOhio]

Cheers Zip, and all your information makes good sense.

The numbers games are bizarre, and it was funny to hear Chevy repeat the "33% growth in the 18-34 key male demographic" or whatever. Sounds phat.

But if the TV audience is 450K, it's likely to assume that only a third were in the demographic. A third of that slice, which represents the new key viewers they are citing, is 50,000 young men nationwide.

That's either a microscopic view projected into giant expectations, or it's chump change.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by PZippy

IndyCar is NOT a multinational series. They compete in Japan as a tip of the cap to Honda. They go to Brazil because there is a huge influx of Brazilian drivers and sponsors. I can't even begin to imagine what their international TV is like since their US TV isn't much to crow about.

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but coverage in the UK is very poor, unless you're willing to subscribe to a sports channel and then pay
for all those other sports you don't care for. Otherwise it's about half an hour of highlights on Channel 5 at 3:00 am on a Wednesday.

[Morris Dancer]

Living outside the US I'm only speculating, but maybe the US auto industry's absence has been a negative factor. Would the series have greater public appeal with Chevvy, Ford and Chrysler engines in the cars?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Regarding sponsorship and IZOD, Penske have managed to get IZOD to sponsor the Briscoe car for part of the season and particularly the Indy 500.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/405320...-motor_sports/

[wnut]

Posted in the F1 forum, but some may enjoy this piece from Maurice Hamilton on sponsorship

http://www.grandprix.com/columns/mau...om-penury.html

[Corktree]

Originally Posted by PZippy

...I'm thinking of my favorite Mark Twain quote, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"

Actually, it was Benjamin Disreali who said this, not Clemens, who was only quoting it, hence the seemingly eternal confusion.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Corktree

Actually, it was Benjamin Disreali who said this, not Clemens, who was only quoting it, hence the seemingly eternal confusion.

Not wanting to digress to much from the thread, Mark Twain (Clemens) attributed the quote to Disraeli. No speeches or any of Disreali's works include the phrase and the earliest it's first mentioned is after his death.

[PZippy]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Not wanting to digress to much from the thread, Mark Twain (Clemens) attributed the quote to Disraeli. No speeches or any of Disreali's works include the phrase and the earliest it's first mentioned is after his death.

Well, I thought it was Clemens, but in either event - I still love the quote!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by PZippy

Well, I thought it was Clemens, but in either event - I still love the quote!

It certainly is a good one.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but coverage in the UK is very poor, unless you're willing to subscribe to a sports channel and then pay
for all those other sports you don't care for. Otherwise it's about half an hour of highlights on Channel 5 at 3:00 am on a Wednesday.

Absolutely no live TV-coverage in Germany. Not in pay nor in free tv. I am not sure on highlights broadcasts though.