The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[TF110]

No source has said it will be the same engine. As far as we know it could be a brand new engine just continuing the V8 layout. To make an engine larger in displacement does not automatically mean much more weight. But for the weight distribution, the hybrid front drivetrain will help balance that if the rear does increase in weight from a larger engine. Its an interesting prospect to ponder over.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

More personal digs. You should talk to others like you'd want to be talked to. I don't have glasses and my eyesight is 20/20 pal And stop labeling me as a "Toyota fan", when I follow much more than Toyota.

You know what's funny: I am more Toyota-fan than I am Audi-fan. I bet you've still seen me as anti-Toyota?

Originally Posted by TF110

Those are a few quotes from others saying the same thing I just reiterated.

(Thank you, gwyllion probably doesn't count as a TMG person/reporter though) Japanese Samurai's translations say 4MJ or more, which still leaves the 6MJ option between 4MJ and 8MJ. Coincidentally Vasselon mentioned 4MJ and 6MJ. To me it still doesn't look like they're necessarily targeting 8MJ.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

Being "locked" in with a certain design will create the need to look places to gain, where you normally would just go to a new base engine!

Point being, we might see some new thinking from Toyotas side to compensate the locked design.

If you actually have to compensate for basically wrong (not ideal) engine configuration, that's not exactly a positive thing, is it? Remember that 2014 regs have no BoP inside the petrol rules itself, so any engine that isn't designed for the 2014 rules has to be inherently disadvantaged compared to a clean sheet design.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Anyone have a listen to the interview with Vasselon on radio lemans before Sao Paulo? I downloaded the mp3 but the audio seems to not work.

Originally Posted by deggis

Seems to be a real mp3 file, but it's just empty/silent file... I sent feedback on the forum:

http://radiolemans.0157.org/content/...echnical-issue

Not fixed yet but the interview seems to be also in the beginning of the Interlagos p3 (1:20 onwards):

http://audio.rpix.org.uk/wec/2013/2013_wec_int_p3.mp3

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

You know what's funny: I am more Toyota-fan than I am Audi-fan. I bet you've still seen me as anti-Toyota?

To be honest, and not being rude but I don't see you as anything but some person who posts on this forum. I don't know or care if you favor one team. Everyone likes what they like.

Originally Posted by deggis:3300030

(Thank you, gwyllion probably doesn't count as a TMG person/reporter though) Japanese Samurai's translations say 4MJ or more, which still leaves the 6MJ option between 4MJ and 8MJ. Coincidentally Vasselon mentioned 4MJ and 6MJ. To me it still doesn't look like they're necessarily targeting 8MJ.

Gwyllion repeated what was said by Toyota as did I. The proof is in this thread, yet you contnue to try and debunk it for some reason. Samurai San's translation says Toyota thinks Porsche is at 4 MJ and they are ahead of them. Being ahead means they are able to do at least 6 MJ since thats the next 'class'. 6 MJ per lap is less than double what they do now. If you are not aware of the total now it is 500 KJ (0.5 MJ) per hybrid zone. There are 7 hybrid zones at LeMans. 500 KJ x 7 zones = 3500 KJ (3.5 MJ) Toyota said they could do double the current allowance. That means 3500 KJ x 2 = 7000 KJ (7 MJ). What theyre targeting is not my point. What they are capable of is my point.

That goes to say if you are currently able to do 7 MJ per lap going by their comments, why would you add another powertrain and target a lower 'hybrid class'? IMO- theyre trying to mislead people or they aren't seeing any gains by going 8MJ. But if thats the case, why not go with one hybrid sution instead of two? Intriguing!

[Aysedasi]

The next person to make any personal digs about another member gets a warning. I don't care who it is or whether they've been warned for it before. For Christ's sake, this is supposed to generate interest for members - no-one wants to read schoolyard squabbles over and over again.....

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by TF110

No source has said it will be the same engine. As far as we know it could be a brand new engine just continuing the V8 layout. To make an engine larger in displacement does not automatically mean much more weight. But for the weight distribution, the hybrid front drivetrain will help balance that if the rear does increase in weight from a larger engine. Its an interesting prospect to ponder over.

"Vasselon would not disclose the displacement of the powerplant, but it’s believed it would be similar to the 3.4-liter V8 architecture the Japanese manufacturer currently employs in its TS030 Hybrid"

This is a sort of 50% confirmation that will be used again the rv8k base. I think that will just be enlarged the bore of each cylinder, so basicly the engine block remains the same of the actual 3.4. It won't be heavy, but for sure not lighter than now. Weight distribution will be a critical factor, to insert in a car a thermal engine + 2 electric engine in a wished overall weight of 870kg, giving a good weight ratio will be the real challenge.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Gwyllion repeated what was said by Toyota as did I. The proof is in this thread, yet you contnue to try and debunk it for some reason.

I referred to this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=6496
"these are numbers taken from articles and publications linked to throughout this thread" / "They're things said by the people at Toyota and the reporters who interview Toyota."

Now check what you actually quoted, bolded & underlined from gwyllion: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=6498

Samurai San's translation says Toyota thinks Porsche is at 4 MJ and they are ahead of them. Being ahead means they are able to do at least 6 MJ since thats the next 'class'. 6 MJ per lap is less than double what they do now. If you are not aware of the total now it is 500 KJ (0.5 MJ) per hybrid zone. There are 7 hybrid zones at LeMans. 500 KJ x 7 zones = 3500 KJ (3.5 MJ) Toyota said they could do double the current allowance. That means 3500 KJ x 2 = 7000 KJ (7 MJ).

In theory and with a few assumptions. But whatever, because this cleared up the sticking point:

What theyre targeting is not my point. What they are capable of is my point.

Ok.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The next person to make any personal digs about another member gets a warning. I don't care who it is or whether they've been warned for it before. For Christ's sake, this is supposed to generate interest for members - no-one wants to read schoolyard squabbles over and over again.....

This is still friendly in nature. At least I think so...

[Aysedasi]

It's moot.

But on with the show.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by deggis

If you actually have to compensate for basically wrong (not ideal) engine configuration, that's not exactly a positive thing, is it? Remember that 2014 regs have no BoP inside the petrol rules itself, so any engine that isn't designed for the 2014 rules has to be inherently disadvantaged compared to a clean sheet design.

Seen from a spectators who is interested in technical innovation, then I find it positive to get new solutions, even if its for compensation
But yes, the solutions would be compensation at first, but the potential could be bigger.
We must remember some interesting solutions have often come from restrains.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

I referred to this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=6496
"these are numbers taken from articles and publications linked to throughout this thread" / "They're things said by the people at Toyota and the reporters who interview Toyota."

Now check what you actually quoted, bolded & underlined from gwyllion: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=6498


In theory and with a few assumptions. But whatever, because this cleared up the sticking point:


Ok.

If you don't believe me you can look at this from racecar engineering http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...brid-revealed/

Toyota’s engineers are openly disappointed about the 500kJ recovery limit between braking zones as they could have easily produced a 1MJ system.

"In theory" they are assuming Porsche can only do 4 MJ. But if they are ahead of that, that means 6 MJ at least. If they could easily do a 1 MJ system currently, thats 7 MJ per lap at LeMans if they could harvest that energy at each of the 7 hybrid zones. It was said that Audi could possibly achieve the same.

[Bandicoot17]

Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

I don't think anyone does. I'm not a hybrid fan, though it is cool tech! But don't you think it'd be silly to complain about not getting the chance to run 100% more energy release, then you double your hybrid drivetrains to only use 14% more energy? Especially if the current drivetrain solution is enough for 7MJ, whats the point adding another one? Seems counter productive.

[Skemer]

Originally Posted by TF110

Especially if the current drivetrain solution is enough for 7MJ, whats the point adding another one? Seems counter productive.

4WD maybe?

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by Skemer

4WD maybe?

Yep. The minimum speed rule is going away next year. I can only imagine what 800+ combined HP is going to feel like coming off the chicanes on the Mulsanne and Mulsanne corner.

Also I would imagine having another motor in the front would help with weight distribution.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Skemer

4WD maybe?

They could run a front driven hybrid system instead of the rear if thats the case. The front would be capturing more braking energy anyway.

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

Yep. The minimum speed rule is going away next year. I can only imagine what 800+ combined HP is going to feel like coming off the chicanes on the Mulsanne and Mulsanne corner.

Also I would imagine having another motor in the front would help with weight distribution.

Theyre making 800+ hp now and its a huge boost, but numerous sources claim 1100+hp in 2014!

As for weight distribution, if the engine gets larger from increased displacement and heavier as a result, would a front drive only hybrid solution be better to offset those increases in weight? That's what makes me assume the reason for going front and rear hybrid is to go the 8 MJ route. If they claim they can get 7MJ on the rear currently, they could do at least that on the front recovering energy!

[Starfish Primer]

Does the 120 Km/h rule for 4WD stay in 2014?

[yamato]

I'd also consider the additional braking capabilities of having ERS on the front and rear,.... combined with the mechanical brakes,... there should be some serious late braking,... followed by that wonderful HP boost,.... and I would imagine that the target lap times will be significantly lower in 2014 while using far less fuel per lap!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Does the 120 Km/h rule for 4WD stay in 2014?

Nope! Done away with...

BTW, the Radio LeMans interview with Pascal Vasselon can be heard at the beginning of their Sao Paulo practice 3 podcast here!
Definitely worth the listen and should confirm a few things about "stepping up" the hybrid power for next year.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think anyone does. I'm not a hybrid fan, though it is cool tech!

I do.

Why not try to capture all the energy you can out of a braking event? You would never get to 100% but competition on trying to capture as much as possible could lead to some breakthroughs.

[TF110]

I know they can get 1 MJ of energy in the braking zones established. They said as much. If they want to step up in the hybrid power delivery like Vasselon says, I think theyll go for 6 MJ at least but probably 8 imo.

Another interesting part of the interview was where he talked about the power going to the wheels from the hybrid power. He spoke about how there would have to be a logical limit to the power to the rear tires so they had to move to the front. That lends credence to there being a lot more power than currently made.

[avvelenamento]

800hp... 1100hp... i'm so lolling when I read that, do you really think that 2014 cars will be so powerfull?
a huge amount of hp (however lower than 800hp in my opinion) will be available for few seconds just after a slow turn in combined power in low speeds (2nd or 3rd) when the car basicly is a AWD, during that range of time we should more talk about of +1000Nm of combined torque than combined power if we consider that final power reached in 6th or 7th will be not so higher than 500-550hp. Don't forget that to save fuel the thermal engine could be set to rev idle when electric boost is released for a long time... so is very unlikely to see all that power you use to think

[Mal]

Toyota have a big feature on the TS030 at The Frankfurt motorshow - so they are starting to use it for PR

https://vine.co/v/h1vZOJiLdFg

[Maelochs]

I don't care if they only make one horsepower, if the overall performance and lap times are comparable with what we see now.

I expect a little top end will be sacrificed for fuel economy, and explosive acceleration (with AWD and full hybrid) out of slow corners will gain some time back.

I expect (engineers being engineers) that in a couple years the cars will be faster than today's regardless of the rules' limitations ... always seems to happen.