NZV8s

[socram]

Originally Posted by promax

...it's not uncommon for different classes of cars.. to race together.. on the same track.. at the same time.

... the only thing holding back a combined V8 field is over inflated egos.

... these small V8 grids are boring.. which is why the paying public choose to stay away. that's a fact.

Says it all really.
Small grids = poor value for spectators.

For goodness sake, right from the Brooklands days, motor-racing has had mixed classes (and also handicap races) and once upon a time, the crowds were huge.

You will never ever, get good crowds at meetings today where one make, or 1/4 full grids or farmer's utes are the norm. Doesn't the spectator's opinion count for anything these days?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

why with GTRNZ and not with ST?

I think you are well aware that the TLX group were given the opportunity to run in the ST races, but baulked at having to pay franchise and entry fee's.

Whilst I am on record as saying I thought the entry fee's first asked were way to high, ST's attitude was "well you have start somewhere" so come back to us with what you are willing to pay, and as I understand it Mr Booth just walked away without any counter offer.

Ray is business man and I know from first hand experience that he will listen and consider any fair and reasonable proposal, their was a deal to be done, however there was absolutely no free lunches to be had, and thats fair enough in my book.

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by promax

nope

Slower then I gather

[HProject]

Originally Posted by socram

You will never ever, get good crowds at meetings today where one make, or 1/4 full grids or farmer's utes are the norm. Doesn't the spectator's opinion count for anything these days?

That said, name a domestic mixed-classes series which does attract 'good crowds'? Or an Australian one for that matter.

[BlueBlood]

Originally Posted by pukekoheracer

Slower then I gather

Slower than what exactly?
Brand new car, only just fired for the first time a few days ago, I would of thought a test with no major issues would be the priority for the team, not setting lap times.

[promax]

Originally Posted by socram

Doesn't the spectator's opinion count for anything these days?

of course it doesn't! lol pr is used to tell the general public what they want to see

[The Realist]

Originally Posted by HProject

That said, name a domestic mixed-classes series which does attract 'good crowds'? Or an Australian one for that matter.

Drifting. This is even Motorsport NZ Sanctioned National Championship.

Truck Racing, Sorry you only asked for one.

[promax]

Originally Posted by HProject

That said, name a domestic mixed-classes series which does attract 'good crowds'? Or an Australian one for that matter.

the difference between domestic mixed-classes series and the so called "star"classes is promotion. just look at the current line up in GTRNZ http://www.gtrnz.co.nz/Entry_Forms_f...val%202014.pdf it's more appealing than what the V8s and one make classes can put out. South Island Endurance Series, Central Muscle Cars, etc too wouldn't have an issue out drawn the star classes if promoted correctly.

[HProject]

Originally Posted by The Realist

Drifting. This is even Motorsport NZ Sanctioned National Championship.

Truck Racing, Sorry you only asked for one.

It appears that you misunderstood my post.

D1NZ don't feature more than one class of racing on the track at the same time competing directly with one another. Pro-Am competitors compete against one another in separate runs, and never against the 'pro' drivers.

I don't follow truck racing so I'm not sure of their 'class' structure. A quick google shows that there are two classes present (class A and class B), but with only two competitors in class B - one of whom is second in the overall standings - it doesn't exactly mirror a traditional circuit racing class structure in my mind.

Taking this back on topic, I had a copy of the entry list for next weekend's NZV8 event flashed in front of me the other day. Only three TLX entries as forecast - Bargwanna's Camry, Ross's Altima and Hughes' Commodore.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

the difference between domestic mixed-classes series and the so called "star"classes is promotion. just look at the current line up in GTRNZ http://www.gtrnz.co.nz/Entry_Forms_f...val%202014.pdf it's more appealing than what the V8s and one make classes can put out. South Island Endurance Series, Central Muscle Cars, etc too wouldn't have an issue out drawn the star classes if promoted correctly.

Hmmmmmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Libre it's more appealing than what the V8s and one make classes can put out. I don't think so, thats just cheque book racing, been there done that, even got the fastest car in the shed and there it will remain or sold!

Promotion can only succeed if you have Stars and Cars.

Equal opportunity cars [which means policed rules] with Stars, now thats promotable.

GTRNZ and NZ Endurance racing have no technical rules that ensure any kind of parity so the biggest cheque book wins because you buy the best car and pay for a 'shoe' like Craig Baird and 9 times out of 10 you win, is not promotable and frankly its boring!

Never thought I would say that but there you are, boring, at least from a spectators point of view.

[HProject]

Originally Posted by promax

the difference between domestic mixed-classes series and the so called "star"classes is promotion. just look at the current line up in GTRNZ http://www.gtrnz.co.nz/Entry_Forms_f...val%202014.pdf it's more appealing than what the V8s and one make classes can put out. South Island Endurance Series, Central Muscle Cars, etc too wouldn't have an issue out drawn the star classes if promoted correctly.

Cool, someone actually read my post before jumping You're right, although many top tier classes would probably argue that they don't have the ability to promote themselves 'correctly' either. I recall having a chat with someone from the SuperTourers early last year (who's no longer with them) who talked about how the category would never get proper crowds without promotion similar in relative scale to what the V8 Supercars have in Australia.

I have a slight beef with the idea of these mixed classes replacing the orgy of V8 series at the top of the pile though.

The GTRNZ class is obviously a favourite among those who have an interest in race cars and points of difference (I'd love to see the SS2000 ex-BTCC Corolla thrown in for good measure), but I'm not sure it's a class that can help produce future Kiwi racing stars like any of the 'controlled' classes. The same goes for the Central Muscle Cars in a way. Brilliant entertainment, but can you see the class producing our next Scott McLaughlin or Shane van Gisbergen?

IMO only the South Island Endurance Series (as well as the North Island Series once it gains momentum) could really take the spiritual place of the V8 classes should they perish.

I think the V8 classes (ST's/NZV8's) do serve the purpose of training our up and comers for careers abroad, with Super Blacks Ant Pedersen and Andre Heimgartner being good examples of that.

[socram]

Originally Posted by promax

of course it doesn't! lol PR is used to tell the general public what they want to see

Yup! You've got it.

There appears to be a bit of confusion here.

Does the paying public really care whether or not a class is a springboard to greater things for half a dozen drivers?

Do they really only want to see 'stars' or future stars on the track?

Do they want to see 'cars' on the track?

Take Central Muscle cars as a classic example. They may not be future stars, or even past stars, but the racing is usually far better to watch than some of the other classes. However, that is just one class and is generally accepted as a support class - as would most of the classes that provide decent grids and interesting racing.

If the whole meeting was made up of similarly attractive grids, then the meeting is very promotable.

If promotion is the only way to get spectators through the gate rather than letting the racing speak for itself, fair enough, but the simple fact is that despite the promotion, spectators are NOT piling in through the gates because the whole package being offered isn't appealing enough. Surely, it is as simple as that?

That whole package includes the whole viewing experience (preferably not behind wire fences or the track inaccessible for half the lap), plenty to see on the track without long delays between races, decent food at sensible prices ($4.50 for a can of coke?) but most of all, decent grids. Is that too much to ask?

[HProject]

Originally Posted by socram

Yup! You've got it.

There appears to be a bit of confusion here.

Does the paying public really care whether or not a class is a springboard to greater things for half a dozen drivers?

Do they really only want to see 'stars' or future stars on the track?

Do they want to see 'cars' on the track?

Take Central Muscle cars as a classic example. They may not be future stars, or even past stars, but the racing is usually far better to watch than some of the other classes. However, that is just one class and is generally accepted as a support class - as would most of the classes that provide decent grids and interesting racing.

If the whole meeting was made up of similarly attractive grids, then the meeting is very promotable.

If promotion is the only way to get spectators through the gate rather than letting the racing speak for itself, fair enough, but the simple fact is that despite the promotion, spectators are NOT piling in through the gates because the whole package being offered isn't appealing enough. Surely, it is as simple as that?

That whole package includes the whole viewing experience (preferably not behind wire fences or the track inaccessible for half the lap), plenty to see on the track without long delays between races, decent food at sensible prices ($4.50 for a can of coke?) but most of all, decent grids. Is that too much to ask?

I think everyone here has the hope that one day motorsport will become a mainstream Kiwi sport again - going toe to toe with rugby, league, cricket and the like on the 6pm news.

What I would argue is that it would never get that mainstream slot without having a professionalised top tier that harvests young talent and generally mirrors the reasons why the Super 15 or the NRL hog the media limelight. And that would not happen with a class like GTRNZ or CMC.

For the sport to become mainstream I think one of the key things that has to be done is to make the competition/athlete element the star much like it is in other codes outside of motorsport - and thus make the drivers and their ability the stars. So to that end I agree with Petch's earlier points about 'stars' being a promotional anchor.

SuperTourers/NZV8's are very far from making that a reality, but they're the closest thing we have to mirroring the mould that successful overseas classes like the V8 Supercars/BTCC/DTM have.

If the sport were to once again get a mainstream berth then it starts to look after itself and we can all breath a sigh of relief. We can have our cake and eat it too.

[Goat Boy]

Tel you what, the HRV Cup is great to see, cheap to get into and short enough to keep the kids happy - but they still only get a couple of thousand to a game. BUT it has almost no promotion, so I wonder whether crowds would be slightly better if they did. Although the ITM Cup gets dismal crowds unless you are in the provinces where there is nothing much else to do, and that has promotion.
The trouble is there are a lot of things to do these days, unless you live in Palmerston North or Invercargill...

[NZSTfan]

Good few posts there HP
So 3 Totally Lame Xperiments for next weekend...wow
Fail
What a truely pointless excercise in nzms history.
Altima looks like poos from that photo and the Camry looks like a fridge with nice wheels. Commies look nice tho, but looks to be one of them. Falcons looked okay to but where is that? Missing its engine that didn't fit in the first place!
Just give up for Christ sake and join a GT field. This is starting to embarass NZ motorsport.

On the plus side everyone who competes in tlx next weekend should get on the podium.....lol

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by HProject

I think everyone here has the hope that one day motorsport will become a mainstream Kiwi sport again - going toe to toe with rugby, league, cricket and the like on the 6pm news.

What I would argue is that it would never get that mainstream slot without having a professionalised top tier that harvests young talent and generally mirrors the reasons why the Super 15 or the NRL hog the media limelight. And that would not happen with a class like GTRNZ or CMC.

For the sport to become mainstream I think one of the key things that has to be done is to make the competition/athlete element the star much like it is in other codes outside of motorsport - and thus make the drivers and their ability the stars. So to that end I agree with Petch's earlier points about 'stars' being a promotional anchor.

SuperTourers/NZV8's are very far from making that a reality, but they're the closest thing we have to mirroring the mould that successful overseas classes like the V8 Supercars/BTCC/DTM have.

If the sport were to once again get a mainstream berth then it starts to look after itself and we can all breath a sigh of relief. We can have our cake and eat it too.

Good post 'Sauce' seriously though, you make some very valid points. I don't think you need to try so hard to distance yourself from Supertourers, or myself for that matter, by referring to me by my surname, but hey your call.

Here is my prediction, if Supertourers fail, then apart from the Toyota NZ backed "wham bam" Series, there will be no premier mainstream motor racing in New Zealand, and we will all be back to Endurance Series racing were 2 or more drivers can fund the cost of racing a car, and a few rich guys get their jolly's paying to bring in a 'shoe' to make sure they can at least get a chance of standing on the podium.

[HProject]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Good post 'Sauce' seriously though, you make some very valid points. I don't think you need to try so hard to distance yourself from Supertourers, or myself for that matter, by referring to me by my surname, but hey your call.

It's just out of habit, Mark

[NZSTfan]

Just in case HP is not sure where the 'sauce' part has come from... Mark is referring to the classic British HP Sauce....which goes very well in a bacon sarney
Its a big part of bring a true blue pom!
Now I'm hungry....

[promax]

Originally Posted by HProject

IMO only the South Island Endurance Series (as well as the North Island Series once it gains momentum) could really take the spiritual place of the V8 classes should they perish.

don't you mean when.. rather than should? mock V8 Commodores vs mock V8 Falcon is dated. even V8SC know this to be true. unless you can stretch a SsangYong over a Pace chassis old TLs and TLXs won't be only old NZ V8 touring cars competing in GTRNZ or in one of the many endurance series in this country

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by HProject

I think everyone here has the hope that one day motorsport will become a mainstream Kiwi sport again - going toe to toe with rugby, league, cricket and the like on the 6pm news.

What I would argue is that it would never get that mainstream slot without having a professionalised top tier that harvests young talent and generally mirrors the reasons why the Super 15 or the NRL hog the media limelight. And that would not happen with a class like GTRNZ or CMC.

For the sport to become mainstream I think one of the key things that has to be done is to make the competition/athlete element the star much like it is in other codes outside of motorsport - and thus make the drivers and their ability the stars. So to that end I agree with Petch's earlier points about 'stars' being a promotional anchor.

SuperTourers/NZV8's are very far from making that a reality, but they're the closest thing we have to mirroring the mould that successful overseas classes like the V8 Supercars/BTCC/DTM have.

If the sport were to once again get a mainstream berth then it starts to look after itself and we can all breath a sigh of relief. We can have our cake and eat it too.

Sorry to rain on everybodys dream but I don't think motorsport can EVER become a mainstream sport in the way you hope.

Firstly, I don't think it ever was. At times it may have gotten coverage but the landscape is increasingly crowded.

Where traditional stick and ball, team sports have an advantage is twofold.

Firstly - the premise is very simple in a way that motorsport will never be.
When players walk onto the field they all have equal opportunity.
With technology sports the variables are less visible and often difficult to understand. Reducing complexity adds spectator appeal.
Complain as you will but reducing it to red and blue, binary tribalism works.
After a while people want variety and so your Wendy's and Burger Fuels and Pizza Huts get a look in but eventually it all still comes down to KFC or McD.

Secondly - every stick and ball team has multiple players and therefore a much larger pool of athletes from which to identify 'personalities' and feed the great media trivia machine
I don't see the life and trials of our racing drivers being fodder for the women's magazines nor do I see enough personalities in the sport. Before telling me that so and so is a right card etc have a think about how many of our kiwi drivers would truly wish to have their every move scrutinised?
Public recognition and fame comes at a high price.

Neither would the minutiae of driver X trying the latest brake pad compound or whatever be of the slightest interest to the 'great unwashed'.

The sport can be endlessly fascinating but often isn't very interesting.

Externally, people think that local endurance series could be the logical 'crown in the jewel'.

I agree that (particularly) the SI Endurance guys have got a great format.
By the competitors, for the competitors. There is a variety of equipment and a great deal of passion. Without the known 'pilots' the level of driving ability is largely middle the bell curve - it appears high until you know how to read the graph.

Already tho this series is turning into a big ****ing contest.
If top notch teams and drivers turned up, the big spenders who support this class year after year (and good on them that they do) would get such a towelling, that would be the end of things.
The class is sustained by enthusiasm not raw ability.

Do spectators care about the stars or about future stars? Yes of course they do.
Just get them started on the 'I remember when' stories, seeing today's stars when they were nippers coming through.

No one ever remembers an amazing game of pinball where its just metal bouncing off metal. But when an athlete steps from that pinball having exhibited the balance, skill and flair that we'd all like to believe we're capable of, we pay attention.

At the end of the day, why is drifting popular? Because the people on the bank can dream their dream that given different circumstances, they could do that. All spectating is aspirational.

One of the issues modern equipment has that is is too good. It 'looks' easy.
Because racing is about control, not aggression and people don't always know how to look at it (hint - look very closely)

He aha te mea nui o te ao?
He tangata! He tangata! He tangata!
What is the most important thing in the world?
It is people! It is people! It is people!

[HProject]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Sorry to rain on everybodys dream but I don't think motorsport can EVER become a mainstream sport in the way you hope.

Well, we can still try. May as well

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by HProject

Well, we can still try. May as well

Yes I suppose. But not by doing the same thing more or less as always.

That, by definition, is insanity.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Sorry to rain on everybodys dream but I don't think motorsport can EVER become a mainstream sport in the way you hope.

Firstly, I don't think it ever was. At times it may have gotten coverage but the landscape is increasingly crowded.

Where traditional stick and ball, team sports have an advantage is twofold.

Firstly - the premise is very simple in a way that motorsport will never be.
When players walk onto the field they all have equal opportunity.
With technology sports the variables are less visible and often difficult to understand. Reducing complexity adds spectator appeal.
Complain as you will but reducing it to red and blue, binary tribalism works.
After a while people want variety and so your Wendy's and Burger Fuels and Pizza Huts get a look in but eventually it all still comes down to KFC or McD.

Secondly - every stick and ball team has multiple players and therefore a much larger pool of athletes from which to identify 'personalities' and feed the great media trivia machine
I don't see the life and trials of our racing drivers being fodder for the women's magazines nor do I see enough personalities in the sport. Before telling me that so and so is a right card etc have a think about how many of our kiwi drivers would truly wish to have their every move scrutinised?
Public recognition and fame comes at a high price.

Neither would the minutiae of driver X trying the latest brake pad compound or whatever be of the slightest interest to the 'great unwashed'.

The sport can be endlessly fascinating but often isn't very interesting.

Externally, people think that local endurance series could be the logical 'crown in the jewel'.

I agree that (particularly) the SI Endurance guys have got a great format.
By the competitors, for the competitors. There is a variety of equipment and a great deal of passion. Without the known 'pilots' the level of driving ability is largely middle the bell curve - it appears high until you know how to read the graph.

Already tho this series is turning into a big ****ing contest.
If top notch teams and drivers turned up, the big spenders who support this class year after year (and good on them that they do) would get such a towelling, that would be the end of things.
The class is sustained by enthusiasm not raw ability.

Do spectators care about the stars or about future stars? Yes of course they do.
Just get them started on the 'I remember when' stories, seeing today's stars when they were nippers coming through.

No one ever remembers an amazing game of pinball where its just metal bouncing off metal. But when an athlete steps from that pinball having exhibited the balance, skill and flair that we'd all like to believe we're capable of, we pay attention.

At the end of the day, why is drifting popular? Because the people on the bank can dream their dream that given different circumstances, they could do that. All spectating is aspirational.

One of the issues modern equipment has that is is too good. It 'looks' easy.
Because racing is about control, not aggression and people don't always know how to look at it (hint - look very closely)

He aha te mea nui o te ao?
He tangata! He tangata! He tangata!
What is the most important thing in the world?
It is people! It is people! It is people!

Take a bow Icarus, just jealous that I could not say it so eloquently! I had intended to say something similar, with regard to our sport never ever having been mainstream, but lost that train of thought. So logically we can never be mainstream because the average Jo blow in the street is not remotely interested in Motor racing or motorsport of any sort including F1.

Many years ago [god I hate this aging process] when I was on the Board of Motor Race New Zealand, along with Greg Lancaster, Mark Gilbert, Robbie Lester etc, Greg in his capacity as the then Managing Director of Noel Leeming, commissioned Satchi and Satchi to do some market research on the public awareness and interest in Motor racing.

S&S concluded that out of a then NZ population of 3.6 million, only 70,000 people were interested in any form of motorsport and of that 70,000 only 40,000 had any interest in actually attending any form of the sport!

Telling numbers back then and the situation will not have got any better nearly 20 years later.

[NZSTfan]

Which is odd when you look at how many top end drivers this country produces over a wide range of disciplines, per capita.

I can't get my head around that TBH but it is what it is.

As Matt said, at least some people are trying.

Yet SBW gets herpes or whatever and the whole country has to know about it! Haydon Paddon wins a stage in WRC and I bet at best there will be a tiny article in the herald and a 5 sec slot at the end of sports news on tv1 and 3....after we have been subjected to many minutes or pages of what the AB's, Blackcaps and Silverferns have done today.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Which is odd when you look at how many top end drivers this country produces over a wide range of disciplines, per capita.

I can't get my head around that TBH but it is what it is.

4.47 million people, 7 permanent racetracks and plenty of opportunities to participate.
Given the limited financial resources to go around anyone who wants to compete at a higher level has to be motivated and committed.
By itself, that is never enough but without it, no amount of money will help.

As Matt said, at least some people are trying.

No-one could accuse Don Quixote of not trying

When setting goals, here's the most common guideline.
Mainstream recognition and following - neither Attainable or Realistic IMHO
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Realistic
Timely

Yet SBW gets herpes or whatever and the whole country has to know about it! Haydon Paddon wins a stage in WRC and I bet at best there will be a tiny article in the herald and a 5 sec slot at the end of sports news on tv1 and 3....after we have been subjected to many minutes or pages of what the AB's, Blackcaps and Silverferns have done today.

The prime-time, mainstream news has reported and celebrated the fact.
So that is a big improvement on the amount of coverage that Motorsport received yesterday or the day before.

Raymond - what is the total number of competing members of MSNZ?
Do you have access to what percentage of those are involved in circuit racing?