The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[VIVA GT]

I'm not usually politically minded but have become so fed up with this whole shambles that last Friday I wrote to Mrs May, Mr Corbyn and my local MP. I explained that what seems a lifetime ago there was a national referendum and the majority vote was to leave (although at the time I voted to remain). Since then there has been nothing but political back-biting & point scoring and despite this wasting endless amounts of time and tax payers money, no results had become of it.
I asked them that now there was an extension to the deadline to work together with their colleagues of all political persuasions to follow the wishes of their electorate and get the best possible deal for us to leave the EU as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
I don't expect my efforts to have any effect whatsoever, but at least I can feel some relief that I have actually tried...

[AndrewCherry]

I appreciate that sentiment, and agree with the fact that the way it's been handled is appallingly incompetent, but... I don't think there is a good outcome which could be had if only people were better at the process. I don't think there's any available outcome which would leave a majority happy (even 52% as what they were promised is in many senses unobtainable and/or contradictory).

I'm not convinced there is any "will of the electorate" which could be both identified clearly and also delivered.

[midgetman]

I really don't know whether our current situation is conspiracy or cock up or a mixture of both. Maybe Tusk, Junker et al all thought from Day One that if they keep muddying the waters the UK would come to heel and stay in. I don't think that in their wildest dreams they would imagine such internal chaos, but they must be quite satisfied.

Next steps - long delay, Euro elections, second referendum, gerrymandered result.

I've said all along we won't be allowed to leave. Happy to be proved wrong, but nothing that's happening at the moment makes me change my mind.


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[Peter Mallett]

Yes indeed. I am somewhat appalled by the approach taken by Parliament. And yes, I think I made the point some time ago that all they've been doing is trying to reach a consensus among themselves rather than just get on with things.

As to a good or bad outcome; I think the best way to deal with this was always to leave without a deal. After the initial shock the system would cope and we could then get on with not only doing deals elsewhere but also with the EU, which really doesn't want to lose the UK marketplace.

By attempting to reach consensus all we've done is allow the EU to control the process and attempt to trap us into staying in the union without any voting rights or crucially without the benefit of EU contributions. In other words a free pass.

Can't blame the EU at all because whilst they have not negotiated in good faith (it takes two gentlemen to reach a gentlemen's agreement) they have taken advantage of a completely useless PM who can either not see, or doesn't want to see the damage she has wrought on the nation.

[bauble]

With Peterboro currently attempting to de-select their MP (the one who lied about a speeding offence) it made me investigate the possibility of trying the same thing on all MP's. Would it not be nice to at least scare a few of them into working for their constituents rather than for party or person, as they do now?
On the UK/Gov petition site there is petition asking for the public to be able to initiate de-selection proceeding if dissatisfied with their representative (Ha,ha.)

The move has been triggered by the number of MPs who are not 'on-side' with the referendum result. It needs a lot more signatures than at present, but I believe it deserves our support. I consider the power to chuck out an MP is essential to preserve democracy in our country.

As it stands I am stuck with an MP who has been chucked out of the Labour party, and has gone in to virtual hiding, and is a Remainer in a constituency that voted Leave. There is nothing I can do about it until the next General Election.

Power to the People!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/236800

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by bauble

Power to the People!

I you like news from what does not work here I dont recommend to wear a yellow jacket it hurts sometimes …

[Mike Bell]

The story that from 2022 all new cars sold in the EU would be fitted with speed limiters was mentioned on Tea Break recently. The news has now got wider coverage.....

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/...cid=spartandhp

This para is my reason for mentioning again.... "Although Britain may no longer be part of the EU when the rules come into effect, the UK regulator, the Vehicle Certification Agency, has said it will mirror safety standards for vehicles in the UK."

So if anyone is still thinking that after leaving the EU we will be free to make our own decisions on many rules and regulations, think again!

[Peter Mallett]

That's a given although it may be an equivalency and not an EU Directive. The point being that if we were out of the EU we have a choice of either copying or improving or doing nothing.

But standards aren't laws in the UK unless they are an EU Directive.

[Mike Bell]

Ah. Is there any mention of what will happen with products that are ‘E’ marked? Will we have to have our own safety standards, and replace the marking on everything?

[Peter Mallett]

No I doubt it. Why change for the sake of it? It'll still be our biggest market anyway. And a lot of the world uses CE marking for all sorts of things including oil refineries.

[coppice]

I can't say I am the remotest bit surprised at the mess we are in . The referendum was appallingly badly fought by both sides but that, too , was inevitable as the real problem, , and why we are where we are , is the total lack of clarity on what Brexit meant .



It was like asking people 'Do you want to stay living where you are or to move house? ' And to anybody with double figure IQ that should have led to a far more robust process with lots of questions about the new house; was it , say, a cockroach infested flat in Hartlepool or a Tudorbethan detached in Weybridge? And , if the latter, could I afford the rates ? And would I still be able to get to work from my wonderful new abode ? Etc .

[midgetman]

That's just tosh. To anyone in the real world leave meant no longer being part of the EU therefore making our own deals under WTO regulations. People understood that, and still understand it despite massive water-muddying ever since.

Canada Plus, Common Market 2, all these have been invented since the referendum to try to keep membership by the back door.

It was quite clear - leave or stay. Stay as part of the trading bloc or leave and not pay through the nose to be part of that trading bloc. What's difficult about that?

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[VIVA GT]

I understand that following the latest developments Parliament are now so confident that they will be able to deliver a successful Brexit that they are already looking towards their next challenge:
Arranging an alcoholic celebration of the fact in a brewing establishment!

[coppice]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That's just tosh. To anyone in the real world leave meant no longer being part of the EU therefore making our own deals under WTO regulations. People understood that, and still understand it despite massive water-muddying ever since.

Canada Plus, Common Market 2, all these have been invented since the referendum to try to keep membership by the back door.

It was quite clear - leave or stay. Stay as part of the trading bloc or leave and not pay through the nose to be part of that trading bloc. What's difficult about that?

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Spare me the 'real world' jibe , please. . I live in the same one as you - I hope - but we just disagree on what Brexit meant . Which sort of proves my original point. I guess . The Vote Leave booklet did not mention WTO at all - but did throw in lots of specious guff about the imminence of Turkey joining the EU and , helpfully , showed us where Turkey was , right next to the other country highlighted on the leaflet , Syria ....

[zefarelly]

It was a protest vote , it had **** all to do with real life.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That's just tosh. To anyone in the real world leave meant no longer being part of the EU therefore making our own deals under WTO regulations. People understood that, and still understand it despite massive water-muddying ever since.

Canada Plus, Common Market 2, all these have been invented since the referendum to try to keep membership by the back door.

It was quite clear - leave or stay. Stay as part of the trading bloc or leave and not pay through the nose to be part of that trading bloc. What's difficult about that?

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Max, it is quite probable that a large number of those that voted either way that they fully understood, or at least had a good understanding of, the meanings of the choice between staying and leaving. And I would hazard a guess that would include most if not all on here.

But, out there, there was also a fair number of those that voted who didn't understand the consequences or what it meant and just voted the way that friends and family did. There was also a considerable element who also didn't understand or didn't care either way, but wanted to give the government (or the "elite" or whatever) a damn good kicking.

However, although I voted to remain, I fully accept that we lost, and all I want is for the politicians to stop fannying about, vote for the deal and let us all get on with our lives.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

It was a protest vote , it had **** all to do with real life.

Delusional. It was a protest yes, but against federalization. The UK government has been pushing to get away from it for many years.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Max, it is quite probable that a large number of those that voted either way that they fully understood, or at least had a good understanding of, the meanings of the choice between staying and leaving. And I would hazard a guess that would include most if not all on here.

But, out there, there was also a fair number of those that voted who didn't understand the consequences or what it meant and just voted the way that friends and family did. There was also a considerable element who also didn't understand or didn't care either way, but wanted to give the government (or the "elite" or whatever) a damn good kicking.

However, although I voted to remain, I fully accept that we lost, and all I want is for the politicians to stop fannying about, vote for the deal and let us all get on with our lives.

Agreed. We are all fed up with the fannying around.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

It was a protest vote , it had **** all to do with real life.

You're right on one thing, it was a protest vote but it had everything to do with real life, just some people are sheltered from the realities of real life

[bauble]

Personally I voted out of old fashioned Patriotism, get out from the cloying grip of the EU dominated by old enemies, stand on our own two feet, and "Damn the torpedoes"


The consequences of a no deal Brexit as bad as remainers claim or as simple as Peter says, I am happy to face either, for the sake of freedom to run our own affairs. Mind you seeing the mess our politicos have made of it so far I could be wrong about the last part.

Proud to be English, never European.

[Peter Mallett]

Baub,

Even you must know that these "old enemies" are no more. Even the French are generally friendly these days, I even understand they like our cheese and beef!

I think we are all European since geographically we are. But we are not federalists and that is the difference. The EU characterizes that as a throwback to our "imperial past" (you can read that on line). I don't think we have any problem with EU standards per se or indeed the ability for them to visit our shores whilst we visit theirs.

What it was about for many was not the jingoistic "us and them" approach, but an ability to be free from the yolk of what has become an over bureaucratic attempt at making the UK a state not a country.

Incidentally it is interesting to note that the majority of migrants come from outside the EU and that migration hasn't actually reduced.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

No I doubt it. Why change for the sake of it? It'll still be our biggest market anyway. And a lot of the world uses CE marking for all sorts of things including oil refineries.

I thought I heard mention many moons ago that we wouldn’t be able to use the ‘E’ mark when not part of the Union. Time will tell! They’re talking about the EHIC card in metro this morning. Must have been reading this thread....

Oh, and headline in the brexit section- “Easter to be cancelled”. Bit extreme, I thought, but it refers to MP’s holiday break. Quite right, too!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I thought I heard mention many moons ago that we wouldn’t be able to use the ‘E’ mark when not part of the Union. Time will tell!

I think we will still have to use the E mark, I've got American tyres fitted on my Chevy and Toyota and the have E marks or they couldn't sell them in Europe and we wont be able to sell anything in europe or even drive our cars abroad without.

[Mike Bell]

Not that simple, it appears, unless I need to read it more than once! . All in the gov.uk document here..... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-...approach-goods

[Peter Mallett]

Actually that's pretty similar to what I said earlier about maintaining EU standards.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Baub,

Even you must know that these "old enemies" are no more. Even the French are generally friendly these days, I even understand they like our cheese and beef!

I think we are all European since geographically we are. But we are not federalists and that is the difference. The EU characterizes that as a throwback to our "imperial past" (you can read that on line). I don't think we have any problem with EU standards per se or indeed the ability for them to visit our shores whilst we visit theirs.

Agreed in all respects; it would be good not to harp back to something that ended over 70 years ago, even if in jest.