Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by AWASP

To add fire to the spark;
https://au.motorsport.com/v8supercar...ngine/4734922/

Walkinshaw seems happy that new manufacturers would be happy with a cast iron pushrod 2 valve category engine based on the existing 50-year-old BOSS 302 and somewhat newer Aurora design, but I'm not convinced.

Surely manufacturers would be after some modern road-relevant technology -- direct injection, hybrid systems and so on?

Would something akin to say this Mazda AER engine be a better fit? Crucially, it would be a chance to forget the regressive Group 3A pushrod V8 regulations and return to the iconic layout of 4 cylinders and turbocharger that the Nissan Bluebird and Ford Sierra made famous in the ATCC.

Out with the blasé Mustang GT and in with the mighty Mustang Ecoboost!





One might call such a category engine, a modernised Cossie. Isn't the Cossie wonderful?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Walkinshaw seems happy that new manufacturers would be happy with a cast iron pushrod 2 valve category engine based on the existing 50-year-old BOSS 302 and somewhat newer Aurora design, but I'm not convinced.

Surely manufacturers would be after some modern road-relevant technology -- direct injection, hybrid systems and so on?

Would something akin to say this Mazda AER engine be a better fit? Crucially, it would be a chance to forget the regressive Group 3A pushrod V8 regulations and return to the iconic layout of 4 cylinders and turbocharger that the Nissan Bluebird and Ford Sierra made famous in the ATCC.

Out with the blasé Mustang GT and in with the mighty Mustang Ecoboost!





One might call such a category engine, a modernised Cossie. Isn't the Cossie wonderful?

If they do a control engine, they should go completely bonkers! How about one of those Judds people used to run in LMP1 15 years ago?

[djr81]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Walkinshaw seems happy that new manufacturers would be happy with a cast iron pushrod 2 valve category engine based on the existing 50-year-old BOSS 302 and somewhat newer Aurora design, but I'm not convinced.

Surely manufacturers would be after some modern road-relevant technology -- direct injection, hybrid systems and so on?

Would something akin to say this Mazda AER engine be a better fit? Crucially, it would be a chance to forget the regressive Group 3A pushrod V8 regulations and return to the iconic layout of 4 cylinders and turbocharger that the Nissan Bluebird and Ford Sierra made famous in the ATCC.

Out with the blasé Mustang GT and in with the mighty Mustang Ecoboost!





One might call such a category engine, a modernised Cossie. Isn't the Cossie wonderful?

They did some really good work updating the 1970's Pinto....

[Jack65]

HSV culls the Chevrolet Camaro. So there goes the logical Commodore successor.

[bathurst77]

On the end the punter doesnt care what donk it has, as long as it sounds good, is fast and all (or most) teams are competitive.
We have had mistakes in the past
formula torana 78 79
Formula sierra and formula GTR in the 80s
when one car was so far in front it was go with them or go home.
They must look sexy, sound scary, be fast enough, and "resemble" a known road car.

[thunderbolt]

you have to wander if gm plan to supply car body shells of any brand and what would even come close to supercar paratte between brands
gm brand cars that could work
buick
2020 REGAL SPORTBACK
2020 REGAL GS
CADILLAC SEDANS
chevrolet
MALIBU
IMPALA
CAMARO

even https://www.walkinshawperformance.com.au/ have no car after 2017

[thunderbolt]

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/cam...d-in-australia
which would see it continue to convert the Chevrolet Silverado pick-up, while also possibly adding the Corvette, large GM SUVs, and even models from other brands in the GM family to its portfolio.

[twinwebbers]

I know, I know it's all been said before...

...but I just looked at this article on Aaron Seton and doesn't the TA2 Mustang look the horn compared to the ugly thing v8 Supercars has running around. Not bad at half the price as well.

[M91]

Originally Posted by twinwebbers

I know, I know it's all been said before...

...but I just looked at this article on Aaron Seton and doesn't the TA2 Mustang look the horn compared to the ugly thing v8 Supercars has running around. Not bad at half the price as well.

They are far less than half the price of a Supercar. You could probably buy 5, for the cost of a new Supercar.

[mayhem]

I still say MARC II is the answer. Fast, relatively cheap, tough and look great.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Jack65

HSV culls the Chevrolet Camaro. So there goes the logical Commodore successor.

That could be a problem.

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That could be a problem.

Yep!

Well, they can always go for Plan B ... oh, that's right, there doesn't seem to be a plan B.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Yep!

Well, they can always go for Plan B ... oh, that's right, there doesn't seem to be a plan B.

Supercars lack of forward planning has not gone well.

How can BTCC attract over 10 manufacturers on the grid (including the supposedly essential Vauxhall and Ford brands), while Supercars can barely manage to attract two!?

It's almost as if their rules allow anybody to build a car from any manufacturer, and have a reasonable chance of success, without it costing an arm and a leg to do so...

Brands like Jaguar and BMW would be perfect -- they sell aspirational coupes with V8 engines and have heritage in ATCC racing, yet Supercars fail so totally in making the business and sporting case compelling.




Perhaps Supercars should bring in the BMW M850i as the replacement model for the defunct Holden Commodore even if Supercars have to pay for the homologation themselves. The BMW 8 series is a very good match to Mustang in terms of body style, and it's a shame that Camaro won't be joining it on the grid!!

I guess Supercars could still pay for the homologation of the discontinued Camaro too, but it depends how badly Supercars think they need to pander to supporters of a car brand that doesn't exist anymore.

[Casper]

Supercars have hit the ultimate perfect storm...

No Racing
No suitable cars to race in this market in the future
Media rights problems
No other manufacturers interested
The sponsor market could be questionable when racing gets going again

The BTCC races cars that are relevant to their market, do you think those same cars would attract crowds here? Our market is SUV/luxury sedans/4WD etc even the Japanese hot sedan market seems to have withered away, god knows what the kids are going to modify now.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

No suitable cars to race in this market in the future

BMW M850i, Mercedes E class coupe, Jaguar F Type and others beg to differ. There are a plenty of aspirational coupes that can join Mustang on the grid.

Supercars goal is to make the business case too good to resist, say by paying for all of the homologation and 80 percent of BMW's sponsorship cost to Walkinshaw Racing.

Judd already do a racing V8 based on a BMW production engine: http://juddpower.com/our-engines/judd-hk-v8-lmp2/ So Supercars could order a set of 5.0L stroker versions. It should be quite similar to the Volvo Polestar Supercars engine, which was also a stroker of a existing production-based race engine, and should be competitive (more so than the Nissan with it's big bore and short stroke that's not optimal for the low rev limit mandated in Supercars).

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

BMW M850i, Mercedes E class coupe, Jaguar F Type and others beg to differ. There are a plenty of aspirational coupes that can join Mustang on the grid.

Supercars goal is to make the business case too good to resist, say by paying for all of the homologation and 80 percent of BMW's sponsorship cost to Walkinshaw Racing.

Judd already do a racing V8 based on a BMW production engine: http://juddpower.com/our-engines/judd-hk-v8-lmp2/ So Supercars could order a set of 5.0L stroker versions. It should be quite similar to the Volvo Polestar Supercars engine, which was also a stroker of a existing production-based race engine, and should be competitive (more so than the Nissan with it's big bore and short stroke that's not optimal for the low rev limit mandated in Supercars).

You are dreaming, each of those cars sell about 10 a year here. If you want to advance any reasonable ideas please be my guest because SC management does not seem to be doing so. I am not sure if it is bad management or the fact there are no good alternatives due to the way the Australian market has moved away from the passenger sedan market and you can't blame SC management for that as much as some would like to.

I think they are between a rock and a hard place with not many options TTTT. I take the fact that they have refrained from making any public responses to all that has happened as proof of that. I wonder if that was the reason behind Warburton getting out, he seeing the future was very bleak and admitting it by leaving.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

BMW M850i, Mercedes E class coupe, Jaguar F Type and others beg to differ. There are a plenty of aspirational coupes that can join Mustang on the grid.

Supercars goal is to make the business case too good to resist, say by paying for all of the homologation and 80 percent of BMW's sponsorship cost to Walkinshaw Racing.

Judd already do a racing V8 based on a BMW production engine: http://juddpower.com/our-engines/judd-hk-v8-lmp2/ So Supercars could order a set of 5.0L stroker versions. It should be quite similar to the Volvo Polestar Supercars engine, which was also a stroker of a existing production-based race engine, and should be competitive (more so than the Nissan with it's big bore and short stroke that's not optimal for the low rev limit mandated in Supercars).

The problem with this idea is that you'll have to do it for every manufacturer, thus completely blowing out any chance of the series making money from the manufacturers and forcing them to pay out of series revenues to have teams on the grid, which is a situation that has been seen before and never, ever ends well.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Casper

You are dreaming, each of those cars sell about 10 a year here. If you want to advance any reasonable ideas please be my guest because SC management does not seem to be doing so. I am not sure if it is bad management or the fact there are no good alternatives due to the way the Australian market has moved away from the passenger sedan market and you can't blame SC management for that as much as some would like to.

I think they are between a rock and a hard place with not many options TTTT. I take the fact that they have refrained from making any public responses to all that has happened as proof of that. I wonder if that was the reason behind Warburton getting out, he seeing the future was very bleak and admitting it by leaving.

The idea of MARC cars is interesting but the problem there is that they are based on cars that don't sell much in Australia, save the Mustang, and thus the possibility of manufacturer interest with MARC cars (or TA2, which has the same problems) is effectively zero. As you say the idea of having SC management pay for the development of luxury coupes for Supercars is one which will see them pay a fortune for little to nothing. With GM evacuating the Australian market the racing world in Australia has to reinvent itself, and as the economies of many nations around the developed world are about to get an almighty kicking as a result of the COVID-19 crisis, the problems are going to multiply and quickly for SC management. They need a massive drop in the cost of competition - right now, not with the next generation of Supercars, cars that the end of Holden and the coronavirus have made quite sure will never arrive.

Whether they like it or not, the days of the big V8s are over.

And what's a real problem for the Supercars management is the presence of the TA2 and MARC cars and the Touring Car Masters. If they go with TCR or GT4, which is honestly probably all they'll be able to get the series to afford, they will get quite comprehensively outshone by the roaring V8s of the support series. But any formula that allows for the big V8 engines is far, far beyond the ability of the series to be able to justify financially.

A real pickle, and short of forcibly killing one of the above series, you'll end up with a real crisis of operation for SC management.

[Armco Bender]

Supercars has morphed from the local car dealer chucking a roll cage in a car on the show room floor and turning up at the Mount,to a high priced sportscar series thats pretty much being owned by overseas interests.
The Bathurst 12hr race type cars may soon become the main game.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

The Bathurst 12hr race type cars may soon become the main game.

Right, so instead of a $600k bespoke car that represented at least volume sales, and is "owned by foreign interests"

You want $1m+ exoticars that are totally and completely owned by foreign interests. At the height of the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression?

Riiiiiiiiiight.

[Casper]

I struggle to think of any volume selling cars in the Australian market that could form the basis for any series that would have a large following. The days of the large family sedan are truly dead & buried and I think it has been proven that smaller capacity cars don't work here on a large scale. Maybe go back to the true sports sedan with loose rules as we had in the past. True innovation was then possible and they were awesome cars and great racing.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Maybe go back to the true sports sedan with loose rules as we had in the past. True innovation was then possible and they were awesome cars and great racing.

Sure but the lack of any controls on rules has resulted in cars that can cost more than a Supercar. Sure they're quicker but at least a Supercar has a place to go after its useful life in the top tier.

Hell Supercars have got expensive, but Sports sedans think they are F1 now and Improved Production think they are Sports Sedans.

Collective management can make any category its own worst enemy.

[Armco Bender]

You want $1m+ exoticars that are totally and completely owned by foreign interests. At the height of the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression?

Yep your right.......lets make Super Utes the main game,back to the workingmans series....

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You want $1m+ exoticars that are totally and completely owned by foreign interests. At the height of the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression?

Riiiiiiiiiight.

What about moving to GT4? That has the problem I mentioned earlier about whether the show is wild enough to get the fans, but the cars don't cost nearly as much as the Supercars do.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

What about moving to GT4? That has the problem I mentioned earlier about whether the show is wild enough to get the fans, but the cars don't cost nearly as much as the Supercars do.

GT4 cars seem to be slow and expensive by comparison to something like a MARC car. They are way too close to GT3 in cost, plus some of them are ridiculous like KTM.