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12 May 2020, 14:22 (Ref:3975723) | #101 | ||
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12 May 2020, 14:43 (Ref:3975727) | #102 | ||
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The series is reliant not only on BMW but all other manufacturers, because it's organized and ruled not by ADAC or some other racing club or federation, but by manufacturers themselves. It is suitable for TV-show but not for the sport. That's why there's no good solution. Every show has to be finished. It's not like running or sailing going on and on through the centuries.
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ACO-Ratel-Lotti group of "entertainpreneurs" soon will make you think that Reverse-Gear-Racing is the most professional series in the world. "Faccio il pane con la farina che ho". |
12 May 2020, 14:47 (Ref:3975729) | #103 | |||
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Although I could pose another question: In 2011, why did Honda race against itself in the BTCC? The answer might give an indication of where DTM should be headed. |
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12 May 2020, 22:42 (Ref:3975806) | #104 | ||
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12 May 2020, 23:14 (Ref:3975808) | #105 | |
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13 May 2020, 05:06 (Ref:3975843) | #106 | ||
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They weren't, which is the point I'm making.
By 2011, Honda was the only manufacturer entry left in BTCC. To handle this situation, the manufacturers championship was amended to become the constructors championship. The Chevrolets were entered under this category, because of the fact they were being run by the same organisation that built the cars (RML). It is this difference that may be the route DTM has to go if it will survive. Entries built without manufacturer backing, by specialist touring car constructors. Ran by the constructors themselves or as customer teams. 2011 was not Honda vs Chevrolet. It was Team Dynamics vs RML. |
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13 May 2020, 05:26 (Ref:3975846) | #107 | ||
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In that case you are basically locked into using road-car shells instead of tubeframes as well, as manufacturers (at least the German ones) have historically always prevented the use of unauthorized silhouettes. There's not much they can do if you take an Audi shell and label it an Audi, because that's what it is, after all - but if you want to slap the Audi name on a tube chassis, you better have good lawyers - and even then you'll probably have to stop calling your car an Audi and modify it until it has only a passing resemblance to an A3/4/5/6/7.
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13 May 2020, 06:37 (Ref:3975851) | #108 | |||
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13 May 2020, 08:47 (Ref:3975865) | #109 | |
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It could actually work, but it would probably need a few add ons to keep it spectacular
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
13 May 2020, 10:20 (Ref:3975887) | #110 | ||
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14 May 2020, 13:38 (Ref:3976141) | #111 | |
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That's not correct, there are many fully electric cars from mainstream automakers. Most of them aren't very good but they are or were on sale. For example, Honda Clarity electric version, VW e-Golf, Ford Focus electric, Hyundai Ioniq electric, Chevrolet Volt, Chevrolet Bolt, Mitsubishi iMiev and of course the famous Nissan Leaf etc. The new wave of luxury electric EVs will arrive to US soon too [Jaguar iPace, Mercedes EQC, Audi eTron, Ford Mustang Mach-e etc].
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14 May 2020, 13:45 (Ref:3976145) | #112 | ||
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It's Australia, it is nowhere near as expensive since our petrol is about 60% the price and we have no CO2 taxes, yet most people still don't drive big V8 coupes (or V8 sedans or V8 utes/pick-ups). |
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14 May 2020, 13:50 (Ref:3976147) | #113 | ||
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Would German fans be happy to lose the aerodynamics from their DTM cars? Would BMW be happy to be racing a "common" manufacturer like Ford? |
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14 May 2020, 13:55 (Ref:3976150) | #114 | |
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14 May 2020, 14:10 (Ref:3976156) | #115 | |||
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That is happening in FE though, with a s 0-60 and a battery range that lasts for a 45 minute race - so it's not beyond the realms of possibly. The closest specs I can find are for quarter mile times. Five Tesla models are listed as completing the quarter mile in under 11 secs, which puts it at similar level to 911 Turbo S, an AMG E63S or an M5. |
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14 May 2020, 17:51 (Ref:3976212) | #116 | |||
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Gen3 rules for DTM? That would work if there was no hunt for a "super duper premium" reputation. It's not about tech side at all. Are there any DTM fans who care about it? It's all about marketing - and "Ford question" is the main, I suppose. |
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ACO-Ratel-Lotti group of "entertainpreneurs" soon will make you think that Reverse-Gear-Racing is the most professional series in the world. "Faccio il pane con la farina che ho". |
14 May 2020, 19:55 (Ref:3976231) | #117 | ||
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Speaking of road cars, would Porsche enter the Taycan into DTM?
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
14 May 2020, 21:24 (Ref:3976250) | #118 | ||
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How much do Formula E cars weigh?
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14 May 2020, 21:48 (Ref:3976259) | #119 | ||
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15 May 2020, 02:33 (Ref:3976293) | #120 | ||
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In 2007 Team Dynamics were informed by TOCA that due to the level of input Honda had into their new S2000 Civic, they would no longer be considered an independent entry and would instead by classified as a Constructor. They were later joined in this category by Arena when they built their own Fords. https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...field-for-2010 Up until 2010 Dynamics continued to operate in this sort of no-mans-land between factory and independent entry, with Honda then coming fully onboard for the 2010 season as manufacturer team. I can't find the official copy of the report on the 2011 entry from the time, but the below link is an exact copy and paste. https://www.crash.net/btcc/news/1676...011-entry-list Honda & Chevrolet entered as manufacturer teams, the Fords entered as a "constructor" team. |
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15 May 2020, 06:44 (Ref:3976312) | #121 | |||
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In my mind, I remembered BTCC having a season with just one manufacturer. I also recall Plato driving an RML-prepared Chevrolet as an independent entry. Both of these I put around the turn of the decade. Looking back at the details now, it looks like that was 2009. The sole manufacturer entry was Vauxhall. In the context of this thread, the point is that BTCC realised a long time ago it couldn't rely on manufacturers, but they still dip in and out of the series from time to time. The series is healthy though, and it has been quite some time since a manufacturer built a BTCC car, as opposed to supporting an entry that would have been on the grid anyway. As was quoted in TCT at the time about the 2010 Honda - 'Is it a works entry? Is it semi-works? Manufacturer? Independent? Oh who cares,' adopting this mentality would put DTM in a better place I feel. |
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22 May 2020, 14:20 (Ref:3977703) | #122 | ||
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German news site motorsport-magazin has a very interesting series of articles on their homepage. It's about the attempt to revive the DTM in the late 90's. To sum it up: By the late 90's, everyone wasn't satisfied with the STW. Therefore, four people set up a secret group, in order to draw up plans for a new DTM: Christian Danner, Rainer Braun - German commentary legend -, the then-head of RTL's sports department and a technician from Opel. I'll leave links below and I'd recommend translating the articles with deepL. It should be good enough, if you translate them from German to English.
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-1/ https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-2/ https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-3/ Maybe that could be a way to go for current DTM, as the situation is somewhat similar. Maybe the remaining stakeholders - BMW, Sat1, drivers, teams and officials - should band together and draw up a concept that will deliver spectacular racing at a reasonable cost, while keeping an eye on the future. BTW: Am I the only one that finds it odd that a commentator had a hand in drawing up regulations for a series? Imagine John Hindhaugh having a hand in creating regulations for the WEC. That being said, both can claim to be experts in their area, so why not? |
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22 May 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3977726) | #123 | |
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I haven't managed to read it yet but I'll definitely do it. It seems interesting and maybe, as you say, this could provide an example for today's situation.
And yes, this is strange that a commentator was involved in it but I think this is quite a nice idea to have someone 'from the outside' to have a say on it. |
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22 May 2020, 18:13 (Ref:3977764) | #124 | ||
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That Rainer Braun article is well worth the read, and incidentally does a good job explaining why a production-based 2.0l series is not a good solution for Germany.
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22 May 2020, 18:46 (Ref:3977773) | #125 | ||
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the most exiting era of DTM was 1988-1990 when the cars they used were even closer to the road cars than the STW cars and to highlight the point STW and DTM did compete until 1996 and who has "won" ? DTM then spiraled itself out of existance thanks to astronomic costs, pretty much like recently |
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