|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
11 Aug 2022, 17:17 (Ref:4122560) | #201 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,384
|
I saw the peter windsor video, and thought the concept of a 'handshake' as a multi-million pound agreement a bit naive.
But there are some common good business principals that apply to all business including F1. Oscar knew what Alpine had invested in him in terms of time/money/resource, so contract or not, good business practice would be to talk to the team to say 'I'm not happy with the Williams deal, Mclaren look like a better offer, I'd like to go for it' Alpine knew they had a junior eager driver, that from his point of view they thought he was going to Williams, the Alonso situation changed, which changed the position of Oscar for Alpine, before issuing a press release, perhaps talk to your team member, find out his thoughts, get a common view point and message before issuing a press release blindly - it's just immature from Alpine Alonso was in the middle of negotiations, if one of you wants to end negotiations you say 'it's over' - Alpine clearly thought they where still haggling easy to say all this with zero fact and just gossip but it feels there is a huge lack of professionalism on all sides going on with what should be a a well practiced operation |
||
|
11 Aug 2022, 17:55 (Ref:4122562) | #202 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,889
|
Quote:
As you say, all the above is easy to say without knowing what the terms of the contract actually were. I would imagine that the contract with Piastri was more favourable in it's terms to Alpine - as you say, they had invested heavily in the young man - so it is possible that as the team had not exercised their option at the 11th hour, Piastri must have felt that he wasn't valued and he may have lost the opportunity to go to McLaren if he had spoken to the team prior to the expiry of Alpine's option clause. In my opinion, for what little it's worth, Alpine cocked up big time and it would seem as though the Recognition Panel also thought so to as they ruled in favour of the driver. |
|||
|
11 Aug 2022, 21:46 (Ref:4122579) | #203 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 306
|
I want to reiterate this point, as some posters seem to think that it was a deliberate act by OP to spurn a 2023 Alpine seat. It would appear that when the 2023 seat with Alpine became available, OP was already committed to McLaren. He may even have wanted, or at least been prepared, to take the Alpine seat, but couldn't because of that contract/commitment.
|
||
|
11 Aug 2022, 22:35 (Ref:4122584) | #204 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,404
|
It seems to me that OP and MW feel Oscar is too good a prospect to heaven forbid have to drive a Williams for a year while he gets some F1 race experience. Good enough for George Russell to drive for 3 years. It seems because the thought of a clearly better McLaren drive was more palatable to Oscar and Mark..... Zak Brown clearly didnt want to invest time and money in Oscar to then have to give him back to Alpine. Zak wants Oscar without ties.
I found it interesting to note that Mark Webbers Management company website makes some astonishing claims given what has happened, and the lack of respect loyalty honesty and integrity is is polar opposite to what he promotes his company to represent. From Marks business website. Quote:
Of course if McLaren manage to pay off Ricciardo which they will, Oscar then has to get thrown in at the deep end of a team and car centred around Lando who is obviously pretty handy. @ Green Machine I understand that Oscar didnt have an Alpine race seat in place at the time he signed for McLaren but he did had an almost certain drive at Williams. Its the lack of loyalty I dont lack, and total ignoring of the team that put him where he is. I hope he hasnt tainted his reputation for down the track in his career. |
|||
|
12 Aug 2022, 03:10 (Ref:4122591) | #205 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
|
So much written with so little knowledge.
|
|
|
12 Aug 2022, 04:35 (Ref:4122592) | #206 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,726
|
|||
__________________
GO Hard or GO Home |
12 Aug 2022, 04:49 (Ref:4122594) | #207 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,404
|
Quote:
I am basing MY opinion of what I know atm coupled to my own (perhaps old fashioned non Piranha Club) personal morals. No one has to agree with me and I hope that as more info comes to light that my opinion will become more accepting. |
|||
|
12 Aug 2022, 06:49 (Ref:4122596) | #208 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,707
|
Exactly. Public discussion forums like this are the opportunity for us all to state our personal viewpoints which generally come biased by our own opinions backed up with whatever knowledge we may have (or even think we have). By reading these diverse opinions others are able to form their own ideas about what is happening (unless of course they don't have an open mind). We can't always expect to have access to *all* of the facts (especially in a complicated case like this one), but that's what can make the speculation, and the subsequent discussion more interesting (if you have an open mind)...
|
||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
12 Aug 2022, 08:04 (Ref:4122599) | #209 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
Quite right, you can only speculate on what you know or guess - but there are very few known facts around this case.
Personally I think Green Machine has it spot on. Once he'd signed to McLaren he was contractually unable to accept any Alpine offer. And Alpine were well aware long ago that OP preferred McLaren to Williams. The only thing that seems silly from OP was the unnecessarily confrontational tweet. |
|
|
12 Aug 2022, 08:50 (Ref:4122606) | #210 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
I think we got a clear idea on what happened, it's just we're waiting to hear it from the horse's mouth
He's gonna end up at McLaren in some form next year and will turn down any offer from Alpine. Alpine didn't do enough for him and McLaren seems a logical choice, certainly more so than Williams And yes, maybe he shouldn't have put out that tweet |
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
12 Aug 2022, 10:08 (Ref:4122616) | #211 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,384
|
I wonder how much actually has to do with Alpine and it's current leadership.
Laurent Rossi has had much public negative feedback from public figures like Prost (keep in mind that he's also a difficult character) and a few others. There has also been persistent rumblings that Alpine are not serious contenders in terms of championships and are not committing the level of investment (both cash, resources, people) to be true front runners, and just want to be in F1 for being part of the marketing and Rossi is just running the team like his own ego empire. From a young drivers point of view that may not be an inspiring or desirable environment to be in, so maybe the opportunity to just be out of there is actually appealing, so rather than the Wiliams drive being unappealing, being out of contract with Alpine was actually the goal |
||
|
12 Aug 2022, 16:15 (Ref:4122631) | #212 | |
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 344
|
I don't think Mark Webber comes out of this well. He has a "nice guy" image which has been spoiled.
|
|
|
12 Aug 2022, 18:43 (Ref:4122634) | #213 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
Quote:
As mentioned above. All we can do is speculate. There is no doubt a lot of untold stories/info that we all just don't have. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
12 Aug 2022, 21:41 (Ref:4122641) | #214 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,732
|
Quote:
He was not supposed to sacrifice Oscar to not hurt Ricciardo’s feelings further after 2 dismal seasons when McLaren were obviously suffering buyers remorse. The people who don’t come out of this well are Alpine who were prepared to sacrifice a 21 year old Piastri so that a 41 year old Alonso could have a graceful ride off into the sunset.Alpine got what they deserved out of this. |
|||
|
13 Aug 2022, 00:21 (Ref:4122643) | #215 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,251
|
I think the people saying that Oscar, Weber etc "done dan wrong" are overlooking one thing. McLaren had already decided they wanted him out of their car. So much so that they were willing to pay many million golden parachute and many million more to a replacement rather than stick with him for just one more year.
They were looking for a replacement when team oscar made themselves known. If Oscar hadnt taken the seat somebody else would have been signed. Two things are certain. Somebody was going to drive that car next year and it wasnt going to be Dan The only reason we are all obsessing is the optics of one Aussie (a very popular one) getting sacked in favour of another (rookie) and the legal and PR stoush caused by Alpines clumsy handling of the affair. |
||
__________________
Bathurst 1977, best day of my childhood Worst thing ever to happen to Ford Aust Motorsport. |
13 Aug 2022, 10:38 (Ref:4122663) | #216 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
I don't think it's Oscar or Mark's fault this whole situation with Dan. Daniel has been given the chance this year, but, despite a few good results, is being overshadowed by Lando, who's still young. So no surprise McLaren are looking for a way out with him. He might not even end the year with McLaren. Can easily see Herta being given a chance
Oscar obviously sees a big opportunity with McLaren. Can McLaren take the risk? I agree though, I don't see Danny at McLaren next year. Really we haven't heard the end of the affair and it's a shame Alpine had to make a mess of how they handled the whole situation |
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
13 Aug 2022, 12:50 (Ref:4122668) | #217 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,955
|
im actually surprised Mclaren are buying a driver out...is this an unintended consequence of a budget cap and Mclaren finding themselves with more money then they are allowed to spend on their car?
dont get me wrong, im a fan of the cap (and of Mclaren) but i wish they could spend that money on the car because, imo, they need a lot more of something to consistently break into the top 3....and imo its not the points that Ric isnt getting keeping them from podiums. on one hand i hope OP could be that more...but on the other hand then would that mean that Norris isnt? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
13 Aug 2022, 15:19 (Ref:4122683) | #218 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
|
||
|
13 Aug 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4122715) | #219 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,732
|
Quote:
The relevant statistic is Norris on 76 points and Ricciardo on 19 points.After a year and a half with no sign of things improving McLaren had no desire to tank constructors points for another year and a half. |
|||
|
14 Aug 2022, 13:53 (Ref:4122780) | #220 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,955
|
for me Mclaren have been massively disappointing this season and imo, the struggles of DanRic dont go nearly far enough to explain why. rather even if Ric had scored 0 points last year, Mclaren would have still been ahead of Alpine in the constructors (or close enough at least for my point to stand). this year Mclaren have also failed to do enough with the new rule set so they have an additional problem.
in other words, Ric's ongoing struggles are just now of much more importance because their current cars struggles (which has kind a been a not much talked about story this year?). both at the same time suck for sure but which one is the underlying problem, the driver or the car? lot of talk about Alpine management and how they mishandled all of this...being honest tho, not sure i see Zak Brown in any better light here and perhaps more in need of finding a scapegoat? its sports so its competitive i get that, but even in sports, buyouts are aggressive moves and rare even for the cutthroat world of F1? when was the last buy out in F1? and Ric is apparently looking for 20+mil buyout??? so relevant numbers for me then are what would the real size of his buyout be and is that amount more or less then what next season's difference in prize money will be? no disrespect to OP who may prove to be a game changer and i hope he is...time will tell if he was the right answer for this team or more to the point, if this team is even asking the right questions? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
15 Aug 2022, 14:01 (Ref:4122862) | #221 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
Quote:
Lando has also spoken out about the challenges with the car. See article below in which he comments about how it doesn't suit his style. There are any number of articles or YouTube videos that show side by side comparisons between Daniel and Lando and it's clear that Lando is able to adapt more to what the car is expecting than Daniel. So it just looks like Daniel has a specific operating window around his capabilities. Give him a car that suits his style and he flies, but otherwise he can be outshined by his teammate. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/n...-car/10352607/ As to McLaren disappointing. I get it. But given how it wasn't too long ago that we were discussion the health and potential longevity of McLaren (mostly a financial question). I think they are doing well enough. Also, this is just a weird year in which while everyone had an opportunity to "get it right" and blitz the field, you also have a field of ten teams and they all have the same opportunity. Just look Mercedes. They are generally a well oiled machine (they do seem to be hemorrhaging staff to other teams), but even they got it wrong and have taken a full half season to get back to somewhat competitive. I think we should see closer parity next season from McLaren and others. This assume McLaren knows "why" their car is not performing well. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
15 Aug 2022, 16:26 (Ref:4122872) | #222 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,955
|
Quote:
all things being equal tho, one could surmise OP will be on a low rookie level retainer and a buyout for DR would be similar to wage he would have gotten in 2023...so from Mclaren's point of view they would have been out this money either way but this way they can develop a new driver, one who may bring in points similar if not more to the underperforming driver he is replacing, at the same time. if i was a more optimistic person then this is a win win. guess im just not that optimistic about this. |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
15 Aug 2022, 17:02 (Ref:4122875) | #223 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
Quote:
If the 2023 car was more to the liking of both Lando and Daniel, then you might assume that Daniel might perform better (and they should keep him). But if they feel the car will be evolutionary and maybe still have the traits that challenge Daniel (and Lando), then they need someone else. This assume Oscar is able to adapt better than Daniel. I say this without having any clue as to what type of car Oscar might prefer or his ability to extract maximum performance from a less than optimal car. Could they have put Oscar in the McLaren simulator to see how he manages before offering him a contract??? Or... it all may just boil down to the fact that they are tired of Daniel and the quantity of points they feel they have lost with him over the recent past. And it is just time to try a new direction vs. hoping his performance will turn around. Only McLaren leadership knows why. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
15 Aug 2022, 17:23 (Ref:4122878) | #224 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,477
|
Contract and financial issues aside, I though I'd read somewhere quite some time ago that the reason Danny Ric's poor performances compared to Lando Norris were associated with braking techniques; the Mclaren requiring some specific technique wheras Danny has been used to be able to jump on the anchors at the very last minute as he's demonstrated many times with demon overtaking manoeuvres.
|
||
|
15 Aug 2022, 18:57 (Ref:4122894) | #225 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVKeBAyIjyw I know I watched a video on YT sometime in the past month that also did some turn by turn analysis of Lando vs Daniel along with timing of where Daniel was loosing time. I can't find that in my viewing history and wonder if its extensive use if FOM footage resulted in it being taken down? Regardless, while it might have been a cherrypicked example of a bad day for Daniel, it was pretty a pretty damming analysis. Broadly it looked like Daniel just struggled to get the car to rotate and even position the car. Richard Last edited by Richard C; 15 Aug 2022 at 19:09. |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
IMSA 2023 IMSA Season | NaBUru38 | North American Racing | 611 | 27 Jan 2024 13:34 |
[BTCC] BTCC 2023 season discussion, News and Rumours! | crmalcolm | Touring Car Racing | 2795 | 20 Nov 2023 20:14 |
Nitro Rallycross 2022-2023 | tbtstt | Rallying & Rallycross | 137 | 10 Nov 2023 13:52 |
2023 RSC Silly Season (WITH POLL) | GTRMagic | Australasian Touring Cars. | 159 | 20 Oct 2023 03:07 |
2022/2023 Silly Season | bjohnsonsmith | Indycar Series | 89 | 15 Feb 2023 20:02 |