Future Grands Prix?

[crmalcolm]

What might the rotational calendar look like?

Based on the votes here:

Year One

Round	Venue
1	Albert Park Circuit - Australia
2	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
3	Korea International Circuit - South Korea
4	Dubai Autodrome - United Arab Emirates
5	Hockenheimring – Germany
6	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
7	Red Bull Ring – Austria
8	Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
9	Hungaroring – Hungary
10	Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
11	Circuit Paul Ricard - France
12	Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
13	Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
14	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
15	Nürburgring - Germany
16	Losail International Circuit – Qatar
17	Miami International Autodrome - United States
18	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
19	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil

Year Two

Round	Venue
1	Bahrain International Circuit - Bahrain
2	Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
3	Marina Bay Street Circuit - Singapore
4	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
5	Intercity Istanbul Park – Turkey
6	Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
7	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
8	Red Bull Ring – Austria
9	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
10	Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal
11	Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
12	Nürburgring - Germany
13	Circuit of the Americas - United States
14	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
15	Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
16	Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
17	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
18	Baku City Circuit – Azerbaijan
19	Fuji Speedway – Japan

Year Three

Round	Venue
1	Albert Park Circuit - Australia
2	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
3	Buddh International Circuit – India
4	Shanghai International Circuit - China
5	Jeddah Corniche Circuit - Saudi Arabia
6	Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
7	Nürburgring - Germany
8	Red Bull Ring – Austria
9	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
10	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
11	Hungaroring – Hungary
12	Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
13	MotorLand Aragón – Spain
14	Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
15	Hockenheimring – Germany
16	Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
17	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
18	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
19	Yas Marina Circuit - United Arab Emirates

Year Four

Round	Venue
1	Korea International Circuit - South Korea
2	Losail International Circuit – Qatar
3	Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
4	Marina Bay Street Circuit - Singapore
5	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
6	Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
7	Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
8	Nürburgring - Germany
9	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
10	Red Bull Ring – Austria
11	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
12	Intercity Istanbul Park – Turkey
13	Circuit Paul Ricard - France
14	Miami International Autodrome - United States
15	Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
16	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
17	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
18	Circuit of the Americas - United States
19	Dubai Autodrome - United Arab Emirates

Year Five

Round	Venue
1	Albert Park Circuit - Australia
2	Fuji Speedway – Japan
3	Bahrain International Circuit - Bahrain
4	Baku City Circuit – Azerbaijan
5	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
6	Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal
7	Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
8	Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
9	Hungaroring – Hungary
10	Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
11	Hockenheimring – Germany
12	Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
13	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
14	Red Bull Ring – Austria
15	Nürburgring - Germany
16	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
17	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
18	Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
19	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan

Year Six

Round	Venue
1	Jeddah Corniche Circuit - Saudi Arabia
2	Yas Marina Circuit - United Arab Emirates
3	Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
4	Marina Bay Street Circuit - Singapore
5	Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
6	Buddh International Circuit – India
7	Shanghai International Circuit - China
8	Intercity Istanbul Park – Turkey
9	Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
10	MotorLand Aragón – Spain
11	Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
12	Red Bull Ring – Austria
13	Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
14	Nürburgring - Germany
15	Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
16	Circuit of the Americas - United States
17	Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
18	Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
19	Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil

There is then the option of hosting a 20th round if a venue wants to be added to the calendar. They would get their first entry on a 3-year basis (to justify the financial commitment) and then their status would be reviewed against the existing circuits.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

When you have 37 venues that have 'earned' their place on the calendar, how do you accommodate them all?

Even going off the countries you mention - the following have all seen a vote for inclusion:
Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
Circuit Paul Ricard - France
Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
Hockenheimring – Germany
Nürburgring - Germany
Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
MotorLand Aragón – Spain
Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
Miami International Autodrome - United States
Circuit of the Americas - United States
Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
Fuji Speedway – Japan
Albert Park Circuit - Australia


20 races with no space for the following?
Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
Hungaroring – Hungary
Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal


My point being - deciding on which venues should be included in a reduced length calendar is difficult.

25 races. They could have a race every two weeks or maybe a couple of double headers so they can have a 4 weeks leave a year like most other workers.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by dsg

25 races. They could have a race every two weeks or maybe a couple of double headers so they can have a 4 weeks leave a year like most other workers.

Yes, but most of those workers also go home to their families every night plus spend their weekends at home. That is not a luxury the F1 circus is able to enjoy.

And before the nit-pickers try to take apart every word written on these pages, I know fully well that some workers work at night, and/or do shift pattern work and some even have to work at the weekends, but they don't all work away from home for weeks on end.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

When you have 37 venues that have 'earned' their place on the calendar, how do you accommodate them all?

Even going off the countries you mention - the following have all seen a vote for inclusion:
Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
Circuit Paul Ricard - France
Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
Hockenheimring – Germany
Nürburgring - Germany
Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
MotorLand Aragón – Spain
Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
Miami International Autodrome - United States
Circuit of the Americas - United States
Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
Fuji Speedway – Japan
Albert Park Circuit - Australia


20 races with no space for the following?
Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
Hungaroring – Hungary
Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal


My point being - deciding on which venues should be included in a reduced length calendar is difficult.

Have they though? Have they all done enough to warrant a full time place on the calendar? IMO, no. Quality is important, not quantity

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Have they though? Have they all done enough to warrant a full time place on the calendar? IMO, no. Quality is important, not quantity

I have underlined the important part here (IMO). Absolutely support your right to have that opinion, but please understand that others may feel differently. As I said - the list of circuits to be included has been taken from here - https://tentenths.com/forum/poll.php...ts&pollid=3846

I accept that the sample size is small, and it is just a snapshot in time. But who decides what a circuit has to do to warrant a full time place on the calendar?

In the theoretical calendar cycle I put forward, the cut-off for 'full-time' inclusion was 75% of votes. Or to put it another way - more than a quarter of respondents don't feel that circuits such as Albert Park, Monza, Monaco etc. should be a permanent fixture on the calendar.

I also found it interesting to see which circuits were equally as popular. Examples include:
Monaco=Sepang
Mugello=Marina Bay
Yas Marina=Fuji

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Actually that is a rubbish joke. This is much better:

https://twitter.com/terriblemaps/sta...FsnDAquYKXhngQ

That got a good laugh out of me. Especially as it shows all of North America inside of the lower 48 itself. I am sure most of the world is tired of people like me calling out the size of the US. We need more Russian, Chinese and Canadians saying this. As all three have more land mass than the US.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The question of where to host, and how many was posed in threads here:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157435
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157437

As stated in those threads, they were intended to be free from real-world debate, but undoubtedly this will have factored into some of the decisions.

From a fairly small sample size, the ideal season length seems to be just over 19 races. However, there is also a 'demand' for 37 venues to host a race.

So - my thinking is that a rotational calendar would make the most sense. Here's how I think it could work (not withstanding a LOT of real-world limitations).

Fantastic post. If mods want to move some of this into one of those threads, that makes sense.

I like the idea of a core set of races and another set that have some sort of rotating schedule. I had wondered about the option of having a split championship and some type of abbreviated "finale" with a limited number of drivers (like the NASCAR chase or whatever it is called). I think that has many many more problems than what you are saying. Overall the problem is balance between fair global representation and servicing fan demand and the quantity of races imposed upon the teams.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

This is hard....
Maybe two in the US at Austin and Vegas but include Miami as a Gulf of Mexico representative state and rotate the names calling it Cuban GP, GP of Dominican Republic, Jamaican GP, and Haiti GP..... Like Bernie did with San Marino...

They could simply go to a formal declaration of 3 GPs for each continent plus 5 traditional races (like Canada) and 1 rotating race each year. Africa would get three (include the Gulf states in Africa), Asia (Singapore, Baku, Japan), Europe 3 plus some traditional ones like Monza, Silverstone and Monaco, and then 3 for South America (Brazil, Bogata and Buenos Aires) and Australia can have three, maybe loan one to NZ.

That wouldn't upset the schedule to much....

The first thing that jumped out at me was the idea of a Miami GP not being a 100% "Miami GP". Especially the inclusion of something like a Cuban GP. My perception is that the exiled Cuban community in southern Florida is no doubt very proud of their Cuban heritage, but also violently against the current Cuban government. And I think a "Cuban GP" would be seen as F1 endorsing that government. You might as well just burn Miami to the ground now vs. try to make that happen on US soil let alone Miami. Lastly, unless someone else is footing the bill, Miami is going to own the branding of that race.

But in the end, it fits into the flavor of rotating races or trying to support other segments of the fan base. And frankly I don't have any better ideas on how to do five races in North American.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What might the rotational calendar look like?

Based on the votes here:

Year One

Year Two
Year Three
Year Four
Year Five
Year Six

There is then the option of hosting a 20th round if a venue wants to be added to the calendar. They would get their first entry on a 3-year basis (to justify the financial commitment) and then their status would be reviewed against the existing circuits.

That's an interesting idea having a rotational calendar but I'm not too sure about including India or South Korea. It didn't exactly work out too well when they last hosted GPs. I would like to see another race in South America. There is a massive fan base crying out for a Grand Prix.

[chillibowl]

japan earlier instead of during typhoon season is a welcome change. in y2 tho, that may be late enough to avoid torrential rain storms? likewise, canada near the end of the year (anytime after august really) and cooler weather may be more of an issue?

anyways, im nitpicking...love the idea of a rotating calendar. skipping a Monaco every once in a while may actually make my heart grow fonder.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's an interesting idea having a rotational calendar but I'm not too sure about including India or South Korea. It didn't exactly work out too well when they last hosted GPs.

distance from larger metropolitan cities was an issue but perhaps that region where they built in S.Korea is more developed/populated now?

they should deserve another shot.

less sure about India tho. down side of alternating at places that were rarely used like Buddh meant dusty dirty track conditions that didnt do the racing any favours. that track would need to see a lot more racing events to be a practical addition?

plus the (regional) gov't in India leaves a lot to be desired. doubt F1 ever goes back there for fear of having their kit held hostage by custom/bribe officials.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

japan earlier instead of during typhoon season is a welcome change. in y2 tho, that may be late enough to avoid torrential rain storms? likewise, canada near the end of the year (anytime after august really) and cooler weather may be more of an issue?

Possibly - the order was quickly compiled in (rough) geographic proximity to reduce the travel distances / time. Also, to mix up the time of year when some events occur.

More effort would be required to really identify the best climatic conditions for each venue - and it is just a very idealistic view of how the season(s) could be organised.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Possibly - the order was quickly compiled in (rough) geographic proximity to reduce the travel distances / time. Also, to mix up the time of year when some events occur.

More effort would be required to really identify the best climatic conditions for each venue - and it is just a very idealistic view of how the season(s) could be organised.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

distance from larger metropolitan cities was an issue but perhaps that region where they built in S.Korea is more developed/populated now?

they should deserve another shot.

It's some time since I wrote about this, and I'm afraid I cannot remember all of what I wrote back then. In essence, the circuit was created adjacent to a reasonably large town/city that is basically a large heavy industrialised area, and the backdrop to the circuit was the very visible huge shipbuilding facility that is one of the main employers anywhere near the circuit. And the local population could well be described as mainly blue collar workers. As far as I know, nothing has changed since the last F1 race there.

One of the major obstacles to the popularity of the race was the fact that the circuit is poorly served by transport links to the nearest international airport. There were infrequent rail services and they were quite lengthy, and it was about an eight hour drive to Seoul which is where the best hotels and facilities are situated.

I don't believe that many from the F1 circus were overly upset when it disappeared from the calendar.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Yes, but most of those workers also go home to their families every night plus spend their weekends at home. That is not a luxury the F1 circus is able to enjoy.

No, not nit picking. Most FIFO (Fly In Fly Out) workers in Australia (and I understand some other countries) spend 1 to 3 weeks away on site working 12 hour daily or nightly shifts each day (including weekends) then return home to to their families once their swing on site is complete.

Working for one of the teams would be similar so could easily accommodate 25 races a year.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by dsg

No, not nit picking. Most FIFO (Fly In Fly Out) workers in Australia (and I understand some other countries) spend 1 to 3 weeks away on site working 12 hour daily or nightly shifts each day (including weekends) then return home to to their families once their swing on site is complete.

Working for one of the teams would be similar so could easily accommodate 25 races a year.

So you're saying that 25 times a year, someone could leave their family for 1-3 weeks and work 7 days a week for 12hrs each day?

A 40hr week for 48 weeks in a year is 1,920hrs.
12hrs a day for 7 days, 25 weeks a year is 2,100hrs.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by dsg

No, not nit picking. Most FIFO (Fly In Fly Out) workers in Australia (and I understand some other countries) spend 1 to 3 weeks away on site working 12 hour daily or nightly shifts each day (including weekends) then return home to to their families once their swing on site is complete.

Working for one of the teams would be similar so could easily accommodate 25 races a year.

You are describing two different types of workers in your example. Yes, people like offshore oil platform workers go out to the rigs and work there for a number of weeks before being transported back to the mainland where they will usually have an equal amount of time off work as on site.

However, there those industries typically have multiple crews that alternate their time away. But that isn't the case in F1, although there used to be two crew sets in most of the teams in past times when teams were permitted unlimited testing between races and seasons. Then, it was not unusual to have one group drive and /or fly to set up the garages, etc. and engineer the cars during the race and then fly back home, with a second group flying in to take over duties to carry on the testing after the race, and then dismantling everything before either going on to the next race or returning to base.

Since that has been stopped, the teams only have one team to do everything, like the truckies, the guys that set up at the circuit and do the on-site catering. Typically, a truckie or two in particular will leave base on a Sunday driving to the circuit so that they arrive by Wednesday and proceed with a group of employees to set up the garage and hospitality facilities plus the catering staff who are needed as well. Then, after the race, they often don't return to base, rather pack up and go straight on to the next race circuit.

And now, especially in view of the budget cap, teams cannot afford the luxury of rotating their staff because that sort of money is required to be spent on the cars. Asking those members of the team to do more and more races, especially the fly away ones, is totally unfair to them. That is why when they started increasing the number of races in a season, the agreement was reached to have the break that now exists at the end of July into August. But that break time hasn't been extended since the current number of races has been increased. In fact, the season is worse for these employees because the season starts earlier in the year and ends later.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by dsg

No, not nit picking. Most FIFO (Fly In Fly Out) workers in Australia (and I understand some other countries) spend 1 to 3 weeks away on site working 12 hour daily or nightly shifts each day (including weekends) then return home to to their families once their swing on site is complete.

Just to go back to this example - once a FIFO worker returns to their family, how long do they typically stay at home each time (not working)?

[dsg]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just to go back to this example - once a FIFO worker returns to their family, how long do they typically stay at home each time (not working)?

Typical swings are 1 week on, 1 week off work with travel to and from the work site in off work time. Other sites may work 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off, 3 on, 2 off 4 on, 4 off etc. or whatever combination of these the company offers.

With 25 races a year the travelling F1 teams could work a 1 on, 1 off schedule with the occasional 2 on, 1 off swing for double headers. This may sound onerous to a week day worker but these working conditions are common in some industries.

[Adam43]

And they don’t have to do it. No one has a right to a holiday.

Actually the teams that long term do the best will be the ones that manage to give their employees a good balance. Stop them burning out, keeping them happy and engaged. Give flexibility to attract and keep the best.

[S griffin]

I do think more consideration should be made for the mechanics and the like. They deserve their time off and for me there are too many races and too much travel. That's partly why I think GPs should be places that are worth visiting, i.e. have enough local interest.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by dsg

Typical swings are 1 week on, 1 week off work with travel to and from the work site in off work time. Other sites may work 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off, 3 on, 2 off 4 on, 4 off etc. or whatever combination of these the company offers.

With 25 races a year the travelling F1 teams could work a 1 on, 1 off schedule with the occasional 2 on, 1 off swing for double headers. This may sound onerous to a week day worker but these working conditions are common in some industries.

This is fine in theory, however, in the current real world of F1 economics and budgetary caps, this is not feasible. As I have written before, no team can now afford to have two squads of staff that travel to races, one on and one off as you suggest.

It also needs to be borne in mind that the squad that attend races also have work requirements back in their bases; they don't just twiddle their thumbs between each GP.

With the need for the teams to employ the best that they can, it means that the wage bill is huge, and this is why they all dropped a number of employees when unlimited testing was stopped because at that time the were able to operate in a way similar to what you suggest.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by dsg

Typical swings are 1 week on, 1 week off work with travel to and from the work site in off work time. Other sites may work 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off, 3 on, 2 off 4 on, 4 off etc. or whatever combination of these the company offers.

With 25 races a year the travelling F1 teams could work a 1 on, 1 off schedule with the occasional 2 on, 1 off swing for double headers. This may sound onerous to a week day worker but these working conditions are common in some industries.

I don't see how that would work - particularly when the majority of teams will be working to the European Working Time Directive. In summary, these include:

• at least 28 days (four weeks) in paid holidays each year,
• restricts excessive night work;
• at least 24 hours rest in a 7 day period;
• a right to work no more than 48 hours per week.

So if you take an employee on the scheme you suggest. 25 times a year, they will be working a 84-hour week. Travel time to / from the races is also considered to be 'at work' if it is a requirement of the employer. In addition, they will have a role back at the base.

It might be common in some industries - but those are typically based around the time away from home being employed, but when they return, the individual is not having to work. For F1 teams, the majority of roles have a 'home' commitment as well as when they are travelling to race weeks.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I don't see how that would work - particularly when the majority of teams will be working to the European Working Time Directive. In summary, these include:

• at least 28 days (four weeks) in paid holidays each year,
• restricts excessive night work;
• at least 24 hours rest in a 7 day period;
• a right to work no more than 48 hours per week.

So if you take an employee on the scheme you suggest. 25 times a year, they will be working a 84-hour week. Travel time to / from the races is also considered to be 'at work' if it is a requirement of the employer. In addition, they will have a role back at the base.

It might be common in some industries - but those are typically based around the time away from home being employed, but when they return, the individual is not having to work. For F1 teams, the majority of roles have a 'home' commitment as well as when they are travelling to race weeks.

Unless the UK decide to go their own way.

[chillibowl]

given that this is also a sporting endeavour, how much training and practice are the crews doing between races? i would imagine their time is already pretty limited.

for sure cost would be a factor, one that would still hurt the smaller budget teams more, but putting that aside, while multiple crews per team seems like the logical solution to more races, my concern would be that between subbing crew members in and out, A & B squads how frequently would we see a team's best crew at any given race?

removing a teams ability to always field their best crew might seem appealing (more mistakes more 'random' occurrences), i worry that combining this with more races would just lower the level of performance for every race. a greater dilution of sport if you will?

supposition: fewer races allows teams to put the best versions of themselves out there across those fewer events?

i dont know where the sweet spot is (personally for me its around 16-17) but surely its not 24+ either.

is anyone here, among us actual fans, looking forward to a longer calendar? i cant say i recall anyone ever supporting it?

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This is fine in theory, however, in the current real world of F1 economics and budgetary caps, this is not feasible. As I have written before, no team can now afford to have two squads of staff that travel to races, one on and one off as you suggest.

That is not what I suggested, one (FIFO) squad could do every race and take the non race week off. It's only one race every 2 weeks, and while teams could afford to employ an away as well as a home based 9 to 5 squad, they choose not to because they want to spend their 140 million on things other than additional staff.

Back to the original topic, I like watching F1 so having a season of 25 races sounds great. Teams can adjust their spending to get the best performance possible while also managing the wellbeing of their employees.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is anyone here, among us actual fans, looking forward to a longer calendar? i cant say i recall anyone ever supporting it?

It's nothing to do with any desire for viewers or spectators (or real fans) to see more races; this is about Liberty - and Bernie wasn't adverse to this - trying to monetise the package, partly so that they can recoup their investment which I don't think that they have yet.

The teams aren't particularly happy with the extra races, but they have been bribed by being allowed to have an increased budget cap, but, more importantly, increased payments from FOM as a consequence.